How England’s Best Keepers Are Built with Dave Watson

How are England’s best goalkeepers really built?

In this episode of the Catching Up Podcast, Paul sits down with Dave Watson, former Barnsley goalkeeper and elite goalkeeper coach, for a brilliant conversation about playing for the badge, losing his career early, rebuilding himself through coaching, and helping some of England’s top goalkeepers reach the highest level.

Dave reflects on his own journey from Barnsley to the Premier League, the injury that ended his playing career at just 23, and the mentor who helped him see a different future in the game. He also shares powerful insight into the psychology of goalkeeping, why so much of the position is “between the ears,” and how young keepers can build the courage, focus and resilience needed to perform under pressure.

The conversation goes deep into Dave’s time in elite environments, including his work with England, his experiences around the senior national team dressing room, and his role in the development of goalkeepers such as Joe Hart. From match day mentality to handling mistakes, reading the whole game, and learning how to stand out at goalkeeper camps, this episode is packed with practical advice for young keepers, parents and coaches.

Whether you’re a goalkeeper, goalkeeper coach, football parent or student of the game, Dave’s story is a reminder that talent matters, but mindset, coachability and love for the game matter just as much.

In this episode:

• Dave Watson’s goalkeeping idols and early influences
 • What it means to play for the badge
 • Why goalkeeping is harder than people realise
 • The Premier League experience and the injury that changed everything
 • How injury helped shape Dave as a coach
 • The “gladiator mindset” every goalkeeper needs
 • Joe Hart and the making of a number one
 • Life inside the England senior dressing room
 • How young keepers can stand out at goalkeeper camps
 • Why parents need to stop shouting from the sidelines

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Transcript

0:05

Hello and welcome back for another episode of Catching Up with EVOGK. I'm Paul and today our special guest is none other than Dave Watson. Dave is a former Barnsley goalkeeper, made over 200 appearances for his hometown club. Played in the Premier League, represented England at youth level and had his own playing career, sadly cut short by injury. That experience has shaped the coach he became. Since moving into coaching, Dave has worked with English clubs including Oldham Athletic, Huddersfield Town, Northampton, Notts Forest, Birmingham City, Norwich City, Southampton as as well as the England U19s and the England senior team. And I've been reliably informed Dave has a good pair of binoculars. That is a long list, a long list that is a long list, and hopefully it was an enjoyable list, a very enjoyable time. Dave's also worked with some of the biggest English goalkeeper names in the modern era, including Joe Hart, Ben Foster, Jack Butland with his Birmingham work earning national attention before he joined Roy Hodgson's England setup. And what makes Dave such a valuable voice for young keepers is simple. He's played it, lost it and rebuilt himself through coaching and helped others reach the very top Dave, absolute pleasure to have you on the show. Welcome. A pleasure to be here. Looking forward to the next hour and maybe 3 hours of fun. And a fellow podcaster yourself as well, right? Oh yeah, I'm well into the podcasting game, so this is not new to me at all. So before we get into your journey, tell us who was your goal keeping idol growing up? Yeah, for me when I was growing up, it was really difficult to pick one because I always had Peter Shilton and I had Ray Clements, so I always torn between the two, especially when you talk about the national team and yeah, obviously ultimately you always have to pick one. So England really, in my early years and my recollection of England in tournaments always went for Peter Shilton. So he always got my edge, but when I used to watch much of the day, only chance he got to watch football on a Saturday evening, I had to choose between the two of them. But when it came to the national team, obviously I got more affinity than with Peter Shilton, for sure. Amazing. and yeah, Peter Shilton, I remember, waiting round in Peterlee Town Centre at one point for Peter to come and bring, a cup through and he never actually turned up, which was really annoying. But, yeah, very I would suggest. That's very frustrating. so you came through, Barnsley youth and went on to make over 200 appearances for your hometown club. Yeah. What's that mean to you as a player? I think when you talk to kids now, obviously, tomorrow I'll come and do a few sessions for the EvoGK team and kids ask you loads of questions about what, where ifs and why nots. But for me, I were very driven just to try and represent my hometown team. I think probably naively now, like appearance, money, cars, watches, it meant nothing to me. Yeah. I wanted to play for that team and I remember my, I made my debut at Derby County at the old baseball ground and we got beat 3 nil. But I remember going home that night and going back to my mum and dad's house, and it were like, every facet of your body just couldn't, you couldn't relax. You'd done something that really, as a kid at 13, 14, you thought were unimaginable. Yeah. And not achievable. but I obviously dedicated my young life at that point to try and be the best example as I could. but I were never in it for the outside rewards. Yeah. I wanted to play for the team and yeah, probably very naive, but it were a world in which your parents, set some boundaries. They were the driving force behind you. You didn't have football agents, so, there were no outside influence. My only drive were to play in that first team if it was achievable. Is an interesting question for you, and I'm keen to see how you answer it. Not trying to set outfield players against goalkeepers, but do you think goalkeepers have to work harder to make the breakthrough than outfield players? Yeah. I think it's a very unique position. I, as a younger player could play outfield and could play goalkeeper. I were very adaptable at both. Would I have been as successful as an outfield player? As a goalie? Probably not because I had a natural talent for sure. But I could play outfield to a very capable standard. And at the time I came through Barnsley's' Youth System, I didn't have a full-time goalie coach. I had a goalie coach once a week if I were lucky. So you became an outfield player? Yeah. So if you move forward to the modern game as a goalie now, I would've probably been a very good example of a modern day goalie,'cause I've always played high to defend the space and the line I were very capable of ball with a ball at my feet. But the rules were different then. so I think to playing goal, you have to have a numerous pass to your armoury. Yeah and obviously in the modern game you've gotta be able to play. You're a better dominate the area. You've gotta be quick, strong, brave, explosive, agile. I think as a footballer, if you fit and well and you can kick it with both feet and you're prepared to put your end in a little bit, you, can survive. A goalie, you need so many more tools to your arm with than that. Yeah. And hopefully we'll get into some of those in a little moment. Today's episode venue was kindly brought to you by the Hilton Garden Inn, just outside the stadium of light. They provide matchday Hospitality to Sunderland fans, and if you do want to drop by on a matchday for food and drinks before the game, please check out their social media profiles to find out which days they have available and get yourself booked in. They have some phenomenal prices in there, great packages, highly recommended. What, was, when you've made that step into the professional game, how did that differ from what you thought it would be? Was it, exactly like you'd imagined or was it completely different? I think because you spend 2 years as an apprentice or I were a YTS lad, you it's really tough. It's probably really brutal now. And obviously the academies are set up to look after kids and players and everything better, but it made you hardened and to want to be a footballer for sure. but you saw what being a footballer were all about you, you knew that if you were fortunate enough to make that grade and be offered a professional contract, there were nothing that you didn't see. So you knew, what were out there. But again, I was still driven by wanting to be like the goalies at that time at Barnsley were a guy called Clive Baker. And he really helped me in my young career. He went on, had a fantastic career at Ipswich and bits and pieces, but you really learn from them guys. A guy called Lee Butler who they signed from Aston Villa, unbelievable guy, friend to this day. And I remember my mum and dad seeing him in the Asda in Barnsley once and him telling me, mum and dad, don't worry. He's better than me. He'll be in the team. I think it were a different time. Things were different then. Yeah and I think people were different. and football's still an amazing thing, but it's come away from the modern man and the modern field is different now. And I just wanted to play football. now a lot of lads who are on this journey for sure, the dream is to represent whether it's the hometown team, the country or whatever. But I think the outside drivers are slightly different. Yeah. And for the younger audience that are watching the podcast, Barnsley at this point was where? It would've been the equivalent of a championship team now. Yeah. So I played all the majority of my football career. The majority of them 200 games would've been in the championship. I was fortunate enough to get the team promoted, so I had 1 year in the Premier League and then the season afterwards I only did 6 games and got injured and I never played again. So frustrating, in a fortunate way, if it's the only time I probably talk about money on this podcast, I'd just signed a new 3 year contract. So I had an opportunity to try and get fit and spent certainly the first 18 months trying to get fit. And then a guy and I know well and the EVOGK family know, Eric Steele, who was a coach of mine, said that he thought I should start looking into the coaching pathway. obviously took his advice on board, still obviously at that point thinking I could get fit. but obviously didn't quite make it. And actually it's ironic that Eric, I asked him to come and watch me play a reserve game at Mansfield Town when I'd been injured for 2 and a half years. And he came to watch that game and told me that I think time's time and very, obviously difficult for him to have that conversation with me, difficult for me to hear that conversation, but through that, he drove me into being hopefully the best coach that I could have made myself into. I think we all get given a path to walk, right? And it's not always what we think it'll be, but it's where, we always end up, where we're meant to be is how I always look at things. what was it like when you got that call to go and represent England at youth level then? Yeah. do you know where I'm, I actually came, I came up to Sunderland. I sat on the bench at Roker Park. I can't even remember who the game was, but a goalie had got injured and obviously I'd been doing well for Barnsley's youth team. And Mick Wadsworth were the Youth England youth team coach. And he obviously knew our youth team coach who'd been watching me from afar, because at that point, the England coaches used to come into all the clubs and take you for a day's training. So that's how they got to know players and staff. And so I'd had that connection with Mick anyway, and Barnsley had been 2 hours away from Sunderland. I got the call I think 36 hours before the game. So I, the, youth team coach brought me up the night 2 nights before the game. So I had the next day training, then the next day I sat on the bench for a, game at roker Park. It was quite surreal. And I kept my track suit, still got, my mum's, still got me tracksuit so I think that's a memory, but that ultimately where the start of the journey, yeah. I didn't feel out of place when I was on the training pitch or preparing for the game. as a young Lad been thrown into that environment, having never thought, or probably ever gonna make it as a professional footballer, nevermind to represent your country. I felt very uncomfortable at that point. But as soon as you put the boots and gloves on, it's a different world. But if you'd asked me to do a podcast 40 years ago, Yeah and sit in front of cameras or talk to people or even do the work tomorrow and do seminars and stand in front of thousands of people and talk, that's never naturally gonna be a skillset. But I think as you get older, you become a little bit less self-aware and obviously your experiences give you that confidence. But the first time I stepped into that environment up at Sunderland. Yeah. very uncomfortable. I think that's quite common for all young goalkeepers, right? there's a difference between wanting to make it and knowing that you've got the capability or believing in yourself, but when it actually push comes to shove that moment of tomorrow I'm playing first team, I'm gonna be playing in the big league here. I can imagine that being pretty much everyone, right? that's healthy. Yeah, it's healthy and that's what everybody wants. And I'm, sure you've, done loads of these things and you've spoke to various people at various levels. And I've worked as a player and as a coach with some phenomenal talent, But it's different to survive a working week knowing that you're gonna play in front of 20 million people on TV and a hundred thousand on a weekend or 70,000 at old Trafford or whatever it is. And ultimately the difference in the levels is not that much, but the difference in the levels between the ears and the mentality for somebody to survive in that environment. And when you make the big mistake that we all make and we're all gonna make and the longer you're playing goal, the more mistakes you'll make. It's that resilience to come back time and time again and stick the gloves back on and get your chest out and smell the grass and, go through the moments. And a lot of goalies I've worked with, when they've had some real difficult times, as we all do, I always try and take 'them back to that moment that they loved football more than anything in the world. The first time they put the gloves and the boots on and they're playing with their mates just out on the field with, whether it's a school match, whether it's a match on a Saturday morning. And I just try and get them to picture that moment and smell the grass at that moment because that's why we're here. And if you can take it back to that and realise that's what it's all about, you'll be better for it. I love that. I love that. I actually, that's goosebumps hearing you talk because like I see my young lad now and I talk about it on the podcast all the time and I look at, and I just think you don't even realise how lucky you are to have what you have and be as good as you are. I was, I had nothing when I was a kid. I got no opportunities and I had no talent to be fair. I didn't, it was never a sports type. how old were you when the injury happened? 23. 23. Yeah. And so do you think that. Early injury that having your career cut short at that point, 200 appearances at 23, there's nothing to be sniffed at for a first team keeper. do you, does that frustrate you when you see young keepers or other keepers who just how have the talent but they're just not yeah. applying it, it created who and what I was as a person and ultimately as a coach for sure. let's not kid ourselves. The first year or 18 months of that journey were very, difficult. And, any green shoots evaporated quickly over a period of time. but it's what, tough makes you stronger and through difficult times, the shoots began to get bigger and greener. And ultimately, I suppose here I am, but, what it did do for me is it formed, an application in my coaching that I would never accept of anybody who I would doing a session with. I'm talking professionally, obviously, when you do camps and there's loads of kids at various levels Yeah. That's a different thing. I'm talking professionally here. I set the bar very high. And if the standards of anybody coming into my sessions didn't meet those standards, then that would've been dealt with quite severely because I had my opportunity taken away and they had opportunities in front of them that they weren't grasping with two hands. Yeah. And I found that very difficult to accept. Obviously, as I matured and got older, I softened and mellowed and realised there's different ways and I got better because I were a better human being and I could talk to people and look the way the modern world went. We were debriefing, we were pre briefing and you spend so much more time together as well as on the grass and on a match day. Yeah. But my, early experiences of coaching and when people weren't prepared to give me a 100%, and ultimately the game that we all love 100%, I found that very difficult. What did, what was Eric's Eric Steele influence on that coaching, do you think? Eric's influence on my life has been profound, is the Godfather to my son. Him and his wife, got basically me and my now wife together. it's been a unique and remarkable thing. I cried profoundly when he left Barnsley as coach, which was only a day a week, and he left Barnsley to go full-time to Darby. I found that really difficult. I'd not only got a great goalie coach, but a friend And somebody I trusted who could develop me on and off the field. and I found it really difficult to replace him and I never really replaced him, even though i were number one goalie and I'd got the choice of goalie coaches and there were probably 6 or 7 came through the door, who I said weren't up to standard, but they were probably never ever gonna be up to Eric's standard. So walking in a tough mantra to follow, but yeah. yeah, I think for Eric, certainly when I finished his drive to know that I'd still got some burning desire inside me to do something in football, even though my football career had been taken away, his influence and support has been invaluable to this day. And then you work through a variety of clubs and I know the way football works, it's not always by choice, sometimes it's by circumstances. Yeah. but it sounds like that was something you enjoyed. Yeah. Experience. Look, the coaching pathway is difficult, isn't it? when you come out of playing, you can't think you're gonna be the best coach. if I could rewind and if we would've had this technology and I could, somebody could have filmed my first ever goalie session at Northampton Town and then you film my last session, even tomorrow's session, it would be polar, like worlds apart. and ultimately our very fortunate that I had some good goalies along the way who supported me in the early parts of my journey. Because if they wouldn't have supported me to the managers, the coaches, the other players, it would've been difficult. I started doing oldham and part-time, Northampton part-time and you're up and down the road, you're driving, you're committed, you're doing the full package on a day, you're doing the senior players morning, afternoon, you're doing the centre of excellence as it was at the time at night. You're working hard for your few quid, that's for sure. And you're travelling up and down, but it's the hard yards that give you then the opportunity. I remember watering the grass with the hose pipe and doing all these things at various clubs, just trying to give the goalies a chance to have a decent session. And then obviously as you, as your career develops, and you're fortunate enough to get to better facilities, you've got groundsmen pandering to your every whimper, the water's where you want it, the grass is immaculate. You could eat your breakfast on it. You know what I mean? There's no blade of grass outta turn, but you've gotta do the hard yards to get to those points and then appreciate it. so yeah, the journey's difficult and I think that's why there's not as many ex goalies make top coaches because it's a very difficult and hard journey. You don't just go from being an international goalie for England with a 100 caps, for instance and walk straight into a great coaching job. Yeah. Because it just cannot happen. It's a different skillset. Totally different skillset. So then, you've mentioned earlier, you, were lucky enough to work at Birmingham with the likes of Joe Hart, Ben Foster, Jack Butland. What do you think that level, what's the attribute that keepers at that level have in common that helps them stand apart? it's obviously all of them have a natural ability for sure. Look, you, coaching is a unique thing and coaching you try and develop these guys, but there's a natural talent there for sure. It doesn't just come off a conveyor belt, goalkeeping talent. So there's a natural talent obviously, hand eye coordination, spring speed, athleticism, all these things. But the one driver that always dominates and is a standout skillset is the mentality to perform. And the actual desire, especially to perform on a match day when it's all out, Yeah. You can train well all week. I could probably put my boots and gloves on tonight and do Okay. If you took some shots at me. Yeah. But the desire to do it day in, day out and go and represent your team to the best level in unbelievably difficult circumstances. And then if the very best of them are fortunate enough to be able to stand on that international stage for everybody on the planet to shoot at you, that's the standout key. Yeah. If I go to Sunderland tomorrow and I take all 20 Premier League goalies and the stadium's full and it's my session and they're just in training mindset, the difference would be nothing. Yeah. From top to bottom. But you see 'em then turn up match day and the mentality and the drive and the desire, the talent and ability's still there. But the ones who get to the very, very, top, they're different animals match day Whether it's in your car or on the team bus, or like most teams, you're flying on the day of the game or flying the night before the game. You cannot wait for touchdown. You cannot wait for takeoff, like a night game. It's the longest wait for you to get your chance to get on that dance floor and perform. It's like being that gladiator in that colosseum and Yeah, the very best, they absolutely love it. There's no fear and it's trying to take that mentality of that 8-year-old kid, 7-year-old kid, boots, gloves, smelling the grass into that colosseum. And if you can do that and take the outside noise away, you'll have an unbelievable career. And football is an amazing thing. Can give you so many joys and pleasures just on the grass. I'm not talking about the rewards outside of it. Yeah, no, because that shouldn't come into play for anybody really. Yeah. It's a, yeah. Secondary benefit, Joe Hart, then the name that, that most of the kids these days, I recognise the easiest. Joe Hart come to play football at Birmingham. and he come out of his comfort zone quite a bit there, right? Yeah. I think at that point it was the right time for him. I'd worked with him in the England youth teams, so I knew him. It wasn't like a virginal appearance. And it would take your chances with him. I'd got to know him. I knew the ability he'd got, I knew Man City weren't gonna put him in their team, but I knew we needed to upgrade at Birmingham if we were gonna stay in the Premier League. and obviously it would a big shock because not many young goalies get the opportunity to perform in the Premier League and the demands of what Birmingham were gonna be, it were gonna be required to make some big interventions for us to stay in the league. yeah. And I would say, and if you had him here with me today, yeah, of course Undoubted talent knew he'd got the talent and he could perform, but the first 6 to 8 games was still tough. The team finding its feet. He's finding his feet, and you live on moments. And his big moment we were going to anfield, I think it was a Friday night live game and we got a 2-2 draw and he were phenomenal in the game. Not only making saves, but dominating his box, taking crosses. And I remember him late on in the game catching one and kissing the ball. And I think that was the moment for me. I thought he's got it. He's got it. Yeah. He settled and from that moment on, really, he rode the crest of a wave for a very long time. And it's interesting, actually, I'm going off syn here, but Guardiola, when he is just left, man City said his only regret is that he never gave him a chance. cause he would've phenomenal goalie too. Yeah. Proper, phenomenal. And he would better with a ball at his feet than anybody give him credit for. And I think City making that decision to take Bravo in, were the wrong decision. And I think Joe Hart could have probably gone on and had another 50 caps for England. Yeah. If Guardiola wouldn't have made that decision. And I love Jordan Pickford. I think he's a phenomenal goalie. Never let England down and I hope that he doesn't this summer. But he didn't have the ability that Joe hart had. But Joe hart came across a time and certainly like me having to finish through injury, you get a manager like Guardiola doesn't give you an opportunity. It's very difficult to bounce back from, get pushed out. And it's almost a downward slope from there, whether you like it or not. Through no fault of your own even just difference of he the top of his tree and Guardiola, I think it were more to do with the leadership and the culture in the dressing room potentially than ability. Yeah. But he made a big call. But it's interesting to see after 10 years of unbridled success is one regret is that he never gave him a chance because they didn't solve the Goalkeeping problem. No, very quickly. It took a period of time and certainly Bravo for two years didn't warrant being better or in the team in front of Joe, but time had gone, Yeah. And so then moving on to Ben Foster, An interesting conversation that we don't often have. We talk lots about practice and skill and training and different tactics and things, but Ben also had to manage his body carefully in terms of protecting from injuries, things like that. Yeah. Probably my first time really as a coach where I couldn't drive the culture as I wanted. Because I want a, kind of relentless coach in terms of looking for the minute detail that the 1 percenters that could make a big difference on a match day. But Ben, having had two acls obviously had to be managed differently, so my whole thought process changed and I probably became a better coach through that period because you learn different ways. Yeah. I knew through my injury that I didn't want goalies running. I didn't want certain types of work that were gonna put real impact onto joints and things like that. You imagine the amount of times you are up, down diving throughout a season, it's phenomenal. So pre-season, were always tailored around that. But certainly Ben's specific individual needs led me to become a different coach because I had to think differently about him and ultimately the longevity of goalies in the game. And is there any advice that you can take out that and apply it to the youth game today in terms of young keepers looking after themselves outside of the match?'cause I see a lot of kids training 5, 6, 7 days a week doing double sessions, playing football at school, football outside of school, different sports. My lad's no different. How do they look after themselves? Yeah, it's very difficult because at that age you've got energy to burn and you don't realise that there's gonna be a detrimental effect further down the line. And to some, there'll not be a detrimental effect. everybody's different and everybody's, bone structures and skeletons are different. But ultimately today, the three and 4G pictures give you an unbelievable environment. So you're not gonna get a bobble when you wanna low dive or if you're doing a passing exercise, you're not worried about getting the ball. And it, it's perfect. I have a fear, obviously for injuries on that. And, obviously the, hard contacts. Ultimately, that'll have to come in time, whether it has been detrimental. But training over training when you are young cannot be positive. Long term. It cannot be. But managing that with the excitement and the drive of youth is very difficult. And dads never get it right. If I tell my son tonight not to do X, Y, or Z, you can guarantee he will do X, Y, or Z. So I'm glad I've left him with his mum tonight. But the, reality is that sometimes less is more for sure, especially when you get into proper training environments and cultures, then the programmes have to be tailored properly. And. Taking that one step further, you then stepped into the England senior setup with Roy Hodgson. Yeah. what was that first England camp like? Mate? Honestly, the most surreal time of my life, I'll never forget it, because it was just a really strange week. We'd lost with Birmingham in the playoffs, semifinal to Blackpool. We'd been in the championship all season, I think we'd played 64 games.'cause we'd done unbelievable in the FA cup. We'd been in the Europa League in the championship, we'd had all the championship games. We'd finally got beat in the semi-final off Blackpool on the Wednesday night. I'm sat, me son, were probably not a year old. And we sat in the lounge at home and we watched Man City score against QPR. And we both, me and my wife, and me wife screamed the babies woke up. We were like, ah, whatever. And I think that game must have been a Sunday. And on the Monday I got a phone call to go and potentially be the England goalie coach at the tournament in Poland and Ukraine. Roy phoned me and said, there's you and another guy who I need to, I've got to do me due diligence on, would you be interested in coming? And obviously I'm, coming already cancelled everything else. And, he got back to me in a couple of days and I've learned since obviously Ben Foster spoke highly with me. Joe Hart spoke highly with me, all the people in the game. I still to this day don't know who the other candidate was. that's football, isn't it? You can be so close, but yet so far away. But yeah. a surreal experience at the end of that season. But when I first turned up to work for England and you saw the faces of the players and the quality and Yeah. a very humbling experience for sure. And yeah, I'd coached at that point what would've been, yeah, 2014. So yeah, it's 12 years ago, isn't it? So I'd have been, late 30's. but yeah, I'd coached 1000's and 1000's of hours, but that were a nervous session the first time I've put that England kit on for sure. And do you still find the same challenges at that level that you have at club level, even, like Yeah, for sure. If anything, it's probably more difficult and, the demands are more difficult. I'm not here to talk about Spygate, what's just obviously happened, but when you are an international team, the manager has to pick the team a lot earlier because when you travel away from home and you want to do a session in their stadium the day before the match, you've got to pick your team a day prior to that because you've gotta do your work privately at St. George's Park at that time. And I remember taking the set plays and sometimes we went inside to do set plays, even though St. George's Park were our home. And you couldn't imagine somebody seeing it. Yeah. But you're that wary of things like that. So we did the set plays inside it quite a few times, but obviously you had to be more set up and ready because you had to pick your team 48 hours earlier. So when we went to train on a stadium, it would just nothing'cause you were giving nothing away. So you had to be a bit better prepared for sure. And what's it like being on the bench behind the team on international game day? Like it must be Oh, phenomenal. I remember that first game, my first ever game as a coach. with noway away pre tournament and I remember stood you can imagine the noise around cameras going off, tv things everywhere. But just standing up to sing that anthem, I remembered it as a player fortunately, in the youth teams and the under 21's. but to sing that anthem as a member of staff, yeah, were pretty, pretty humbling experience for me. For sure. And when you just bring it down to the human level, you think about people who have helped you on your journey when you're singing that song, you think, I thought about my dad who passed away a long time before and I think it's things like that hit home to you and it's the emotional side of things when the anthem plays, that's quite hard to come through, to be honest with you'cause you're probably not actually at that moment thinking about football. Yeah. But then it stops and then it's back to business and it's, you just got to be switched on and off like that, It's that reset, isn't it? Yeah. And it's just like being a goalie, when you have a good or bad moment, it's gone and you have to have the next moment. And that's the, amazing thing about playing goal. You have an amazing moment you make a say. If you're not back in the game, the next action's a mistake. And on the opposite of that, you make a mistake. But if you next actions are positive, you're back in the game. Yeah. So you can't start sinking, but you can't start getting too high either the best one. It's just that neutral level of consistency. While we're there then, have you got any tricks or tips that you'd Yeah, look, I used to do a lot with goalies for sure. Obviously this is, if you're playing at a level and you've got clocks and screens and things, I always used to say to 'em, look, you, decide the time intervals. But I used to put it in 15 minute blocks and just to strap, your gloves every 15 minutes roughly. And imagine we're starting again so you don't drift in that 45 minutes. now with the extra time you get, it could be 55 minutes, so you might be re strap, you might need some new gloves. But I tried to have that methodology so that you didn't drift. When you looked at that, I wouldn't shout on or anything. They had to be aware of it, but they knew then at a point it had to be a reset, right we're off again. So you just never got caught drifting. Yeah. that was one mechanism I used to try and get the lads to make sure they didn't switch off, for sure. Love that. And so obviously modern game has changed considerably even in the last 10 years, from 20, 30 years ago. Do you think modern goalkeepers need to understand the whole team's strategy more now than ever? Yeah, I think the education now is phenomenal in academies. Look, every nuance of a position for your team, whether you're playing with a back 4, back 5, if you're playing with 1 6, 2 6's, 2 8's, 2 10's. I think the education that the lads get is phenomenal. But ultimately when you're playing goal, if you've got 1 6 or 2 8's, you've still gotta get your team set up so that you can find the patterns. You've not only gotta be able to see the patterns, you've gotta be able to execute the patterns. And when you know that your team play a certain way, you've gotta think the opposition are gonna set you up for that pass, but really want to jump on this pass. So it's not that easy. But the education that the guys get in terms of football is second to none. Second to none. What do you think that maybe young keepers get right to do that the previous goalkeeper generations were weaker with or didn't get? I think now if, I would've been a goalie in the system now and you are at the right club with the right coaches, I think the whole package that you get to be successful is you. You can, if you fail, 'cause you're not good enough. But I don't talk, normally in that language. I always say you'll find your level because your level's, your level. But the tools that you're given, if you get to a category one academy, so nutrition, sports science, psychology, education, football, education, coaching. You, can't finish that programme and say that you've not been given an opportunity. Yeah. And that's why I said that you don't necessarily fail, but that level may be too much for you. So you naturally will fall down, but you will find your level. And when you find your level and you get used to playing and getting your foot on the grass again, you can obviously climb the ladder again. Climb that again. How, bravery is such a big thing that we talk about. And at certain level at grassroots, it's quite hard to talk about bravery because you can tell a kid to be brave all they want, but unless, they're ready to be brave or they've got it in them to be brave. That's hard. Is there a way to coach bravery without No, I'll be very brutal on this. There, there probably isn't. You can obviously put 1,001 drills on and for anybody who's gonna watch this camera, I'll show you a prime example of it. The young goal, who does what I'm gonna show in a second, or the goal who's 36 and does it or 26 and does it. So if I'm coming for a spread or a block and I do that Yeah. Whether I'm 8 18, 28, 38, I'm never getting that out of that kid. Yeah. Yeah. You can go into softball practice and repetition of softball practice so it doesn't hurt. And you sometimes can use the big yoga balls and all, there's so many tools. Stand behind the fence or Yeah. Whatever. But you cannot imprint that. And the best goalie who confronts that 1v1 situation or that 1v1 standing situation and boom, and that head stays like that fixed and you produce a biggie shape, you can, but stay there. I don't think that's something the coach can coach. Yeah. That's my honest belief in that. And there's a million practices you can try, but the guy who wants to go, or the guy who wants to go, that's in you. Yeah. But the goalie who turns his head is not gonna get very far. it's interesting Now, I think aggression comes with age, right? Yes. attacking the ball, attacking the players being, but the bravery one's an interesting one and it, I like, I don't think it's a, reflection on them as a person. it doesn't mean they're not brave. No. But it's a, it's something psych, it's primary. It's psych. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And not everybody can do it. Yeah. And that's not to say that you're not gonna get to a good level. Yeah. But very, best at the very top. Thrive on it. Thrive. Yeah. Yeah. So coming down to the last few questions now, Dave. What should, what do you think parents need to understand about the goalkeeper journey for a young grassroots kid and their kid's got talent or they think they've got talent and they're ready to support them. What's you have to support and nurture that talent, again, like we said, you could send little Joe out and he might want to be out there 7 days a week, 2 sessions. That's not necessarily right either. I think, I am a parent myself, but, the family structure's different for me. They love football, but they're never gonna be footballers. it's slightly different. What I don't like seeing is parents at the back of the goal screaming, shouting, dictating what happens.' cause the goalie's got to have his natural talent and he's gotta play the game or she's got to play the game. And ultimately when they find their level, they're gonna play the game. You can't play it for him. I think the best thing you can be is supportive and nurture that talent. And ultimately at points you have to be honest and open about what's happened and what's not happened. But ultimately the arm around the shoulder is always better than the digging the ribs. For sure. Yeah. Don't, spoil the fun of the game for Yeah. Look, football, we should all love it. And if you can go and be like emi Martinez and playing the last World Cup final and produce a save like that and have the enjoyment on his face, you imagine what he were like when he were 8 and they were doing exactly the same. It shouldn't change. Even though the enormity of the task is what it is, you are still on that field for that first time smelling the grass. And if you can take that through with you, I think it'll serve you in good stead. I must admit that the image of emi climbing the goal mouth onto the top, unsuccessfully climbing his boots into the net and trying to climb. Do you know what, a what an unbridled, just natural Emi moment like that epitomises why he does what he does. Yeah, because the joy was just, you can't take that and that's why you do it. That's hours and hours. And when you talked about what, do you do? That's Pilates, that's yoga, that's stretching, that's flexibility. None of them things we see. Yeah, that's off the field work. Like most of this stuff is to be the best example you can be. For a young keeper who's not currently in an academy, what advice would you give them about staying in the game and keeping that door open? Look, listen, you have to keep that door open. And if you are in a games programme, somebody will eventually see you and word spreads pretty quickly when there's any talent, whether you're right back, left back, central half or your goalie word spreads in any community. and you can't lose your self-belief'cause I am a firm believer that you will find your level and there is always a pivotal moment in any footballer's career where you ask them if there were sat here at any of them, where there's a moment something happens for him. So you've always gotta be ready for that moment. And if you are ready for that moment, you'll give yourself the best chance. And lastly, bringing it back to your idols. So Ray Clements, Peter Shilton, if we were to pick them up and drop 'em in today's modern game, how do you think they'd cope? I think Peter, physically in the Premier League would find it pretty tough. Ray had got a bigger stature for sure. but ultimately they never played with the ball at the feet, did they? So it would be very, hard to judge on them. But in their generation, these two guys were phenomenal. And ultimately sport changes and it moves on. So it's hard to bring'em into our bubble. They were at the top of their tree in their prime, in their generation. And would they be able to keep goal today? Of course, yes. But it'd be very, difficult for 'em. Be interesting, I'd love to see it. Yeah. We need a time machine or something. Yeah, I'd love to see that. that's the end of the questions for today. Dave, I really appreciate you taking the time to come down and have a chat with us. No, really. Thank you very much. Really enjoyed it. Thank you so much. Brilliant. And I'll see you again for the next episode. Take care. Bye-Bye. So welcome back for the EVOGK community questions where we do a bonus session with each guest for the podcast and we dive a little bit deeper into, things that directly impact on the EVOGK goalkeepers, Dave, if a young keeper wants to stand out at one of the Evo camps that you are running, what would impress you the most? The thing that impresses me the most is the ones that really engage with the coaches. And you are not guaranteed to perform well in every session, but if you can engage and even ask a question if somebody in your group does something really well, realise why they've done something well. And on the opposite side, if something's not gone quite so well try and educate yourself within it or ask the coaches as to why, because that's how you're gonna learn and develop by watching others succeed and fail and ultimately trying to put that into your own game. But the best way to learn is to engage with the coaches, for sure. Yeah. I guess it starts with self-awareness and knowing when I've made a mistake or I've done something well, and then learning from that then moves into watching what others are doing. Yeah, for sure. And I think that's a big thing on these camps because obviously when it's your turn and you are in, you are on the stage, you're engaged. what's difficult on these camps depend on numbers and age groups for sure is the drifting at the side. Yeah. But they don't realise that if they could really get the focus on what's happening with somebody else and when the coach is trying to break that down, that's when they'd learn even more. Question number two then. What are three habits every young goalkeeper should build before they worry about playing like the pros? I would never worry about playing like the pros because you cannot, it's great to have role models and idols, but every goalie is built differently for sure. You have to find your own way. So what I don't want is 20 robots in a line that are all the same, because if you're all the same, you're either all gonna be number ones or you're all gonna be out the game. You have to find a way. But I, I think for sure when you come to a camp or training you, put your own personality on the job, but your technical work and approach to your work has got to be flaws. Effort and authenticity. Yeah. Yeah. They are non-negotiables. If I were running EVOGK which interestingly leads nicely into question three, which is how can a young goalkeeper then become more coachable without losing their own personality? Because it's easy to just become a yes machine, right? Yeah. But like the best ones, you can see the edge with 'em. You can see the edge with 'em. they might give you the nod, they might just look at you in a certain way, but that's years of coaching experience from my, time in the game. But you don't want the nodding dogs. You want the ones who are going to challenge you because that's what makes me a better coach and I know that will make them a better goalie. The goalie just agrees with everything you say. Whether they're 8 or 38, no chance of having any effect. The one who challenges the coach right now, I've gotta make you better. Now I've gotta make my sessions better. And if you put as a coach, all them things together, that kid is only gonna flourish. Last question then, Dave. What's one thing that you wish every young keeper understood before they went into a serious training session? That it matters. And I take that because you never know when the last one is for whatever reason. That's powerful. I like that. I like that. Dave, it's been an absolute privilege. Thank you very much for joining us. Oh, good. I've enjoyed it. I've enjoyed it. I hope you've enjoyed it as well. And I'll catch you on the next episode.