Inside Sunderland's Goalkeeper Pathway with Jonny Maddison

What happens when a goalkeeper spends ten years chasing the dream, gets released, walks away from football, and then finds his way back to the club where it all started?

In this episode of Catching Up, Paul Banks sits down with Sunderland AFC first-team goalkeeper coach Jonny Maddison for one of the most honest conversations we've had on the podcast.

Jonny's journey is unlike most. After being scouted by Sunderland after just five hours playing in goal, he spent a decade developing through the Academy of Light before earning professional opportunities with clubs including Leicester City, Yeovil Town, Darlington, Crawley Town and Port Vale. Along the way he trained alongside elite goalkeepers including Kasper Schmeichel and Mark Schwarzer and experienced football at the highest level.

But football doesn't always follow the script.

After leaving the professional game, Jonny found himself working outside football as an Amazon driver before slowly rebuilding a coaching career that eventually brought him back home to Sunderland. Today he works alongside world-renowned goalkeeper coach Neil Cutler and helps develop goalkeepers throughout the club's pathway while supporting the first-team environment.

During this episode Jonny shares insights into academy football, goalkeeper development, scouting, mindset, confidence, parental influence, modern goalkeeping, Jordan Pickford's development, Robin Roefs' rise, and why decision-making is becoming one of the most important skills in the modern game.

In this episode:

• Being scouted after only five hours in goal
• Why Shay Given was his childhood idol
• Life inside Sunderland's academy
• Training alongside Premier League winners
• Walking away from football
• Amazon driver to professional coach
• Returning to Sunderland
• Working with Neil Cutler
• Jordan Pickford's pathway
• Robin Roefs' development
• What scouts really look for
• Common goalkeeper coaching mistakes
• Advice for young goalkeepers and parents

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Transcript

Paul 0:09

Hello and welcome back for another episode of Catching Up with EVOGK. I'm Paul Banks and today's guest is the amazing Jonny Maddison. So Jonny brings a mix of real playing experience along with modern coaching insight, and does that at Sunderland AFC, Jonny's a Sunderland Academy graduate himself, and went on to play as a professional goalkeeper across the EFL and the National League System clubs including Crawley Town, Leicester City, Yeovil, Darlington, Port Vale, and he was part of the Leicester City setup during their Premier League title era. So lots of tales, I'm sure. Made 22 appearances for Yeovil Town and then later returned closer to home with Darlington, before moving into coaching. now he's back at Sunderland, jonny works with the club's young goalkeepers, or has done till recently helping shape the next generation through the academy Pathway. His Role focuses on supporting goalkeeper development across the academy and developing a clear route for young players to progress their careers and until recently where Jonny has now moved into working more directly with Neil Cutler and the first team goalkeepers as well. we'll cover that as part of the questions, but going back to what I've just said, I think what makes Jonny's perspective, as far as this podcast concerned so valuable is that he's lived both sides of the journey. So he's been that professional level goalkeeper, he's done it at the highest levels, involved with clubs winning the Premier League. There's not much more that you can say to that. but then also moving into the coaching environment and working with all the age groups from the young goalkeepers. And if you're a regular on match days at Sunderland, and you'll see Jonny stepping out on the pitch and warming the first team keepers up on match days as well. lots and lots to cover. Jonny, thank you very much for coming along. Thank you. You Genuinely a pleasure.

Jonny 2:01

Brilliant.

Paul 2:04

and I'm pleased you've recovered because as we record this, we are not sure when this episode's gonna go out, but, less than 48 hours ago, Sunderland qualified for the Europa, having finished seventh in the Premier League, my voice is just about recovered. Jonny's head is just about been screwed back onto his shoulders to be able to do a to And, on top of that, he's on a full day's coaching sessions with EVO at the beacon of light. no doubt your head is absolutely battered, Jonny. And, if you need to take a moment during your

Jonny 2:37

question, I'm just delighted to sit down if I'm brutally honest. It's, it's been a, it's been a really, fun, 9 hours, so no, really glad to be here.

Paul 2:47

Amazing. so as i do with all of the goalkeepers and the coaches that we speak to, before we get into your journey, I'd like to just ask, who was your Goalkeeping idol growing up?

Jonny 2:57

Truthfully, I don't think this one's gonna go down too well, because I looked at it when you gave me the question initially and I said, am I gonna be truthful here? And I am gonna be truthful.

Paul 3:07

Good.

Jonny 3:07

Shay given was my idol growing up when Newcastle were in the Champions League. I just thought the way he conducted himself around the goal, how reactive he was under his crossbar, and some of the big moments here you'd see him make, was amazing. I'd say from a, local sense and seeing him live, that was definitely someone who I looked up to moving more into, me as a player, I would say Joe Hart was very influential in that, in a sense of the England goalkeeper.

Paul 3:37

Yeah.

Jonny 3:38

Joe in his prime was a beast in a sense of what he was psychologically, physically, and then also his game output as well.

Paul 3:46

Is he really calm, wasn't he? just

Jonny 3:49

Yeah.

Paul 3:50

I'm not gonna lie, I had a soft spot for Shay Given when I was a kid as well. obviously he spent his time here and, we have a, long history of really good goalkeepers here at Sunderland. so I'm really not surprised. I mentioned at the beginning that you came through the Academy of Light yourself. Yeah. what do you remember most clearly about being a young keeper at Sunderland?

Jonny 4:08

The amount of times I was there. Really. I think even in, in the game today, you see it within the academy. it's a real investment from not only the player but from the families. And I think the amount of hours you spend dedicating to your craft for an outcome that is not guaranteed is really difficult. and to be in the system from 9-year-old, believe it or not, I started playing for my local team as an outfielder at 9 years old, Yeah. 8, 9 years old. My dad was the manager, kinda, the old cliche in that sense. Yeah. The goalkeeper had left. I was some lanky tall bean pole playing in the middle of the park. And my dad just went in you go son into the Russell Foster. And it was, it was actually a tournament we were playing in. And the opposite, manager had to rank the opposition goalkeeper out of 10. And that kind of score was collated at the end of the tournament. And it just so happened on that day that I'd scored the highest points. so I'm standing there collecting this trophy and, a Sunderland scout comes up to me and goes, how long you been playing in goal, son? And I went about five hours. And he was like, oh, would you like to come in for a trial? And back in those days it was the old like 6 to 8 week trial process. And, I actually only played 2 games at under 9's and straight away my mam and dad were in, they were taking me, they took me for a tour on the academy and basically just sat me down do you know why your here son? And I was like, no, not really. And he was like, oh, we'd to sign you. And literally, I hadn't looked back since then.

Paul 5:47

Amazing.

Jonny 5:48

so really, unique space I was in with regards to the 10 years at the football club within the academy that I had. the cohort of goalkeepers we worked with over the span of the 10 years was remarkable. And I think that's credit to Mark Prudhoe, who again, needs no introduction in a sense of me, myself working alongside him now as a coach, but him being my coach as well.

Paul 6:14

Yeah.

Jonny 6:14

in the early days, really giving me that, that core foundation to go and have a career in the game as well as many others.

Paul 6:22

And so what age were you? 'cause you were released eventually by Sunderland. in 2013. So what age group were you?

Jonny 6:29

I was the end, my end of my second year scholar.

Paul 6:31

So

Jonny 6:31

it was, A difficult moment naturally. It was my first release, suddenly had been my club for 10 years. We lived in, the local area, 20 minute commute five times a week. I was getting outta school twice a week. I trained with the first team, I trained with, the old reserve teams had been exposed to an array of different things. And then that can soon end in a, 20 minute conversation just before the new Year period. I think thankfully, again, I'll echo that Pruds, had, a secondary plan for me. he thought I needed to go and experience the efl. and thankfully I went into League one as a, number 2 at just 18 years old. And our first game was live on sky away to Swindon. which I'll never forget. I sat on the bench, but in, in the moment as a second year scholar, it was just from academy football straight into the senior game and it was just sink or swim. And I think it, it didn't allow me a lot of time to reflect on the, downsides or the negative aspect of the release and just allowed me to just go, straight into the professional game,

Paul 7:40

which I can imagine that that's really important to have that, plan B lined up. Because I'd imagine there's a lot of players out there that take that really personally. or it's, there's potential to take it really personally and, reflect on you're just not good enough. But that's not the case, is it? It's not the way it's worked.

Jonny 7:56

Yeah. I, think naively like I could sit here now and go, yeah, I had a plan B, but I didn't. And I think you'll probably asking 90% of players now at that age, you don't have a plan B because your ego's telling you and you were telling yourself, I'm gonna be a footballer. Yeah. And I think if you didn't have that mindset of that selfish mindset, I think the likelihood of you making it will be tough. It really would. because the game is more competitive now than ever. The amount of coaching and detail and opportunity and talent out there is ridiculous. and when you look at it, it's all gotta be crammed into the best league in the world of 20 teams. And you look that from a goalkeeper context, 20 teams of 3 goalkeepers, that's 60 spots in the world of all the ages that you need to be a part of. So when you look at the stat state and,

Paul 8:49

and to your point, 2 of those, in each team are sat on the bench waiting for their moment.

Jonny 8:53

Exactly.

Paul 8:54

Frightening. Frightening. And then obviously you, were at Leicester City as well, during. Something that's never happened before. During that period of time, what was, what, talk me through, how did you get to Leicester City? What was your role during that time? And

Jonny 9:08

so it was, it, actually worked out well for me doing the Crawley and the League one aspect first. so like I say, I think when I look back on my career as a whole, the academy, although I was there for 10 years and I got a great amount of detail, I think players sometimes sleep walk into a little bit of mediocracy or almost. and I'll open openly say that, when I look back at it and the release or the news were the best thing for me because it actually allowed me to reset and go again. I had 18 months of crawley and it was a real, experience in a sense of what league one football looked like and the not So glamorous aspects of it. So when I went back to Leicester and I was back in a football club that was really well resourced and had really good people around it, it was it was a bit of an epiphany in a sense of I'm not gonna let this go by any stretch. And, so the work rate knuckled down tenfold, and being around at the time Mike Stowell the goalkeeping coach, and we didn't have a lot of numbers in the PDP, which is your 18's and 21's phase. so Mike was very keen on integrating the under 21 boys or under 23 at the time with the first team. So to work on a daily basis with Mark Schwartzer, Kasper Schmeichel, Ben Hamer, was a real privilege for me. and like you say, the mindset of the football club at the time was, it was before the training ground before Seagrave came, the proud, of themselves under just hard work. it was a non-negotiable at the time, Nigel Pearson was a manager. and it suited me to the ground. like you say, for the kind of the 2 seasons I spent there, a real, array of, unforgettable memories, really looking back.

Paul 11:07

I can only imagine, who, what you talked there about some of the senior goalkeepers that you worked alongside during your career. What's the, biggest learning point that you took in that phase when you are still a goalkeeper yourself? What's the biggest learning point that you took from more senior goalkeepers that you're around? What did you try and emulate from them that kind of made you better,

Jonny 11:29

I think I touched on it earlier and it's, a little bit of quiet arrogance and I call it quiet arrogance because, Neil talks about it again, and I know we'll touch on Neil in a little bit, but he's big on, a saying of, confidence on the verge of arrogance. And it's a real, fine line that you walk because in order to be top level and deal with the pressures of crowds, media expectation on a consistent basis, by the way, not just,

Paul 11:57

yeah,

Jonny 11:57

once in a blue moon, you have to have a confidence or an ego about you that is gonna allow you to do that. But I think importantly, you look at the top, top athletes in the game, or, not even in football, just in sport in general, they have this really, high ego, but they balance it with an unbelievable humility. And I think to have that capacity to hold both is a real skill in

Paul 12:22

I think that's something that's been echoed a lot by the other coaches that we've spoke to on the show as well, And I think it's almost ironic that for such a physical game, the key elements for so many players, and it's not just limited to goalkeepers and key elements for so many players are actually mental. And yet that's probably the part that nobody spends any time coaching people on at a young age. Or that sometimes that you can even coach into people 'cause you've gotta, you've gotta come to that yourself as well, haven't you really? It's, either in you or it's not.

Jonny 12:54

Yeah.

Paul 12:54

And it's like aggression, right? you can't, make a, an under 7, under 8 goalkeeper more aggressive at what they do. They've gotta come to that themselves. So you've found your way back to Sunderland, and was that intentional? Is that some, was that always part of what you wanted to do in the end? did you see yourself coming back to Sunderland eventually, or

Jonny 13:12

truthfully? No, I didn't. And truthfully, I didn't see myself when I transitioned out from playing as a coach. I knew I had detail and good understanding of what I wanted. I was a little bit, naive or inexperienced in the sense of how I wanted to communicate it across the, players. so when the coronavirus, when the pandemic came in, that was my last contract under Port vale. and I had a real, crossroads in my life in a sense of what I wanted to do. I had 2 years away from football completely because I think psychologically I was tapped out with the game. One and two year deals here and there, move into to every corner of the country missing out on key events. It was, a great, it was a, like an unbelievable sacrifice. It's, again, it's the same old story that will be echoed by many, but people only see the good sides of football. Yeah. and I think, again, reiterating that the season as a whole, or seasons as a whole are really tolling on you physically and mentally. so I had 2 years outta the game and, I'll say this open and honestly I was a delivery driver at Amazon, because I had, no, the skills, I had unbelievable aspects to give from football in sense, but from qualifications, all my friends were electricians, plumbers, skilled tradesmen, and what could I offer? Luckily in that moment, the pandemic was, the going rate was everyone was ordering online. Yeah.

Paul 14:48

Yeah.

Jonny 14:48

So the going rate, so actually it was my brother that got me in the back door with regards to Amazon. the money was okay. It helped, it was important because I had to pay a bills, and

Paul 15:00

give you breathing space. Right.

Jonny 15:01

Yeah. I had 2 years of just being normal. And I say normal loosely in a sense of if I wanted to go out to see my friends on a Tuesday night, play a bit of pool, maybe have a beer or 2, get some food, see birthdays with my mum.

Paul 15:16

Yeah.

Jonny 15:16

my dad, my mum was, shielding at the time in, in, in the pandemic. And again, there, there was just a lot of things that made me just wanna be normal again. And I, first came back into Coach and through, through Middlesborough, it was after the 2 year period, there was a job on Indeed regarding just a part-time role, 9 to 16's. I just fired my CV out and then, ah, we'll give this a go. They've been in touch, I delivered 2 sessions and they were like, yeah, we want to take you on board. And it turned from part-time to pretty much full-time, working with the 9 to 16's, really good club, really good people. loved it was there for 4 to 6 months. And then I was on a CPD event actually when England come and they deliver, the kind of processes to all the different regions.

Paul 16:08

Yeah.

Jonny 16:09

and it was hosted at Sunderland, so I went back to the club and I seen a lot of old faces that I hadn't seen for 10, 12 years. That was like the cleaning staff, the kitchen staff Pruds was there and they were just like, we thought you were still playing. Where have you been? And I was just like, no, I'm coaching and they were like, you're joking. And then one thing turned into another and I ended up being in there full time. So I'm really privileged to be sitting here now And in the position I am 4 years on. but yeah, I wouldn't, change it for the world. Now it's, I look back at it and it's all my experiences have shaped me to who I am and, naturally, football is where my heart is and where my skill set is. So long me that continue.

Paul 16:54

That's amazing. And I can only imagine that means a lot to you personally. being a sunderland boy and growing up through the academy To return home, to give things another, to give the next generation their chance and, spend some time with them. It's, a fantastic story. obviously you've worked quite closely with the academy keepers, but you are now. Taking the next step in your own career, and getting to work along Neil, who from the, conversations I have with people is like, Neil's one of the best goalkeeper coaches in the world. Bar none.

Jonny 17:27

Yeah.

Paul 17:28

so what's, the, plan? Is there, a plan? Is it kind of redundancy planning? What's the, I know, I dunno how much you can share or how much you can't work

Jonny 17:37

with, forgotten with regard to Neil or

Paul 17:39

with, you working with Neil, with your step up and,

Jonny 17:42

I think firstly when the promotion happened a year ago, there was a lot of question with regards to what the coaching remit would look like. Alessandro, who by the way, is a, is an excellent young, modern goalkeeping coach who coached in so much detail and, helped me so much in the years prior. he almost had me indirectly working with him a lot whenever he could. He appreciated that my commitment still lay with the academy. but whenever he could get me over there, he would, working with the senior boys at the time, I think it was Pat, Nathan, Bishop, Alex Bass, Jake Carney, it was really, good for me to get that exposure early. and I think, like you say, I was sitting in quite a niche space in a sense of me being quite younger for a coach, being a player and also having a bit of coaching detail as well. so it, allowed me to be really relatable with the boys and settle in with the seniors quite easily. Yeah. maybe easier than most. so like I say, when, Neil was, had the chance to come in last year, for me it was, a reason that made me want to stay, not that I was in, in any rush to, to leave, but that it was just like, wow to work with this guy and even pull some little nuggets of, where he is been, what he's seen, who he's worked with. his time at Villa and obviously Emi Martinez is speaking as, as highly of him as, what he is. And the podcast he's been on from previous. I think the key thing he took, or I took from it was on the first day he sat me down and he just wrote environment and everyone thought it was gonna be, or I thought anyway, it was gonna be some kind of, magic word that, or way of coaching that it, that made him, but it wasn't, it was the environment and it was how we were with the players, our relationships with the players. And he said, I want that right from the get go. So he selfishly utilised me a lot more, in this season. and like you say, as the department is growing, it's, it is gonna be like, say looking really positive going in the next year and into europe.

Paul 20:04

As I can only imagine, cause as a, from an outside perspective, you, we hear a lot of, how good the academy is and how we value bringing the young players through. And we've always done well, we've always, developed and brought on. But I guess the sticking point for some is we've always ended up being the club that had to cash in on them. 'cause we were never quite big enough to hold on to the level of some of the players. Jordan Pickford being a great example, we would've loved to have held onto him. but I guess. As we've now moved into being a Premier League club again and moving forward into Europe. But it makes sense that the coaching staff also get those opportunities not just to be working with the academy, but to be working with the first team and bring the 2 together. 'cause that gap now between academy and first team must be monumental.

Jonny 20:54

Yeah.

Paul 20:55

Bigger than it's ever been before.

Jonny 20:56

And I think that was the biggest thing of kind of what we went after this year with, especially the PDP goalkeepers because we were looking at that gap of what it was. I, would say somewhat linear, but not really. But when we were in the championship, it was more linear when we were in League one because the opportunity of the players there were a lot higher, because of the resource had or, didn't have. and say when we went into the premier, that gap had just gone from 21's to first teams boom. Yeah. And I was sitting there almost like in the space in between the 2 going, what can we do? What can we affect? What can we change? and I think the biggest thing we utilised this year was the loan system. and how we manage the loans of some of the senior players in the 21's to go and get a CV in the game. Yeah. Go and get a real exposure of what it looks like in, in the non league. and more importantly, give the younger players in the academy an opportunity. and like you say, we've got players like Joe Cowen who played in the PL Cup final. Yeah. It's 16 years old in the under 21's.

Paul 22:11

Yeah.

Jonny 22:11

Which is remarkable,

Paul 22:13

phenomenal.

Jonny 22:13

And it's the same as Matty, when Matty had that opportunity as well. But we're big advocates now on, we have to stretch, but we also have to be very, careful of what that stretch looks like, because when you stretch things they can snap.

Paul 22:28

Yeah.

Jonny 22:29

They can break. So we have to make sure that, I would say, if you look at it from a 4 corner perspective, technical, tactical, physical, psychological, the 2 key aspects that we look for in the goalkeeper is are they physically capable to handle the demands of being stretched in a senior environment or into a phase above them, like age group? and are they psychologically capable to do it? Have they got good temperament?

Paul 22:55

That was probably one of the questions I'm quite curious about is how much contact do you have with the goalkeepers that are out on loan? is it, do you spend a lot of time with their current parent clubs, working with them on the development plans or is it your theirs now and we'll see you in a bit.

Jonny 23:12

I think I subconsciously took on the, goal keeping loans manager role within the 21's especially. We had, Dan Cameron out on loan to hebburn town. We had Isaac Allen out on loan to hebburn Town because of Dan's performances for Hebburn It, turned into where a step one National League loan into Boston, which was great because it was shown to me that his cv was becoming stronger. He was getting noticed and that secondary loan would never have come about if the hebburn aspect hadn't come. Thankfully geographically hebburn's 20 minutes away. So we could control what his training provision looked like Monday to Friday. hebburn were very accommodating with it. They were on board, and they just allowed him to play on the match day. We'd still give him his post match analysis, their analyst would send us through the clips that we could go through and the fine deal and give them the same service as what it would be like playing in the 21's.

Paul 24:09

Yeah.

Jonny 24:11

and again, I think it just helped with the whole environment of the goal keeping department. We had 6 in the PDP and managing them all when there's only 1 in 18's game on a Saturday and 1 in the 21's game on a Monday. That's 4 others that aren't getting something.

Paul 24:26

Yeah.

Jonny 24:27

like you say from a from an outcome perspective to have, boys out on alone and boys getting a stretch in around it was brilliant.

Paul 24:36

Amazing. And then coming back to where we are now, I've been bringing my son to games for what, 2 and a half years. And we've seen you out on the pitch warm and warming the keepers up almost that entire time, or if not all of it. what's that experience like and Prematch on Match day with, we're blessed in the Northeast and I say that with baited Breath, right? Yeah. Like we're very blessed to have 3 big teams with huge support.

Jonny 25:03

Yeah.

Paul 25:04

what's it like being out there with 48,000 people setting expectations, 3000 away

Jonny 25:10

fans being quite loud and vocal. You carry it hard. You carry it hard. And I think, I dread to think what someone like Robin carries when he's playing. He's in the moment and I'm on the sidelines and my work's done. Yeah. So when an outcome happens, positive or negative, we're sometimes sitting there going, what would I have done differently or what could I have done more? How would I have structured the week? Or how would myself and Cuts (Neil Cutler) have structured the week? Should we have given X or Y or done whatever. But it's hindsight, isn't it? and I think that's the beauty of football. But going back to the magnitude of the club, and I'll give, Sunday as prime example, we left on the coach from the academy from pre-match. And we, all of our prep was done, everything was ready. We were just ready to go to the game. And when we seen the masses that had, that had congregated around the ground and the flares, and it took us 30 minutes to get into the ground because it was, that much. But I knew straight away when we went down into the dressing rooms and sat, I knew we were gonna win because of that. And I think from myself, and there'll be a lot of fans that are watching this, it's a big thank you from not only myself, but the rest of the coaching staff and the players that they were the 12th man in that and they've been the 12th man all year. They've been brilliant and like you say, it's so rewarding to see from someone who has a real personal affiliation with a football club.

Paul 26:43

Yeah.

Jonny 26:44

as well as a professional one.

Paul 26:45

if I might speak on behalf of the rest of the Sunderland and fans, it's genuinely old pleasure to be the 12th man on that pitch because I think we do appreciate a lot of the time, a lot of the fans appreciate the hard work that goes into that preparation. You can see it in the moments before the match, the how tuned in everybody is and how focused everyone is, but I when you are in those final moments before, is there anything that you guys are particularly looking for as coaching team? is it just a warmup or is there anything else in there that you guys take away from that?

Jonny 27:17

I think firstly the warm ups are very precious to the goalkeeper, so they're very different. obviously we've had, Robin has played the lions share of the games. We've had a period where Melker has stepped in. And again, I think he got a little bit of a baptism of fire in a sense of playing in the Derby He certain did. and let alone picking his Premier League debut. I think the key thing is don't go in too hard with them. Don't give them too much. Your details done in the week, Monday, Friday. Yeah. They're intelligent guys. They know what they need and what they don't need. For me, the warmup is more of a psychological rehearsal. Yeah. For them to emulate what they need. some key, some goalies I've known and I've worked with to be overcooked. They're like a lot of reps and a lot of up downs so they feel ready. Others like less. with Robin, he's a little bit in between, but I think one thing is, his temperament is, he knows exactly he's not phased. He's really not phased. And for a boy who's just gone 23, to be able to handle that in an environment of 48,000 Mackems is remarkable.

Paul 28:20

He doesn't, it's funny 'cause I often think just, even just looking at him, he doesn't look 23, he doesn't look 22 as we first met him He looks years and years older. not because he's got an old face, he just carries. It's the way he carries himself. I think it's, you are right. Like it's, that charisma that he's just, seems like he's born for that next level. and we're very privileged to have him around. to be able to see him firsthand before he, I have no doubt he will move on to do whatever he needs to do. I'd like to think we managed to keep him, but

Jonny 28:52

fingers crossed.

Paul 28:54

but we've got our work cut out for us if that's what we're gonna do. And, that kind of comes into, we talked about Sunday qualifying for the Europa League and i guess. whilst that still fresh in, it's, less than 48 hours since we, since that moment. Are you guys now thinking hard? about next season? How does that impact on your coaching? Because obviously you're playing 2 games a week or for some parts of the year now. do you train harder? Do you train less hard? What's,

Jonny 29:23

I think that's probably, if I don't delve too much into the physical aspect of it, because the guys in the performance department from especially first team level have controlled that and can be done a, really good job on that. but I think just to give you a small snippet of what it is, I think since the promotion, the game, the training week has been based more around your tactical aspects of what the opposition are and from a recovery perspective, like the recovery aspect of the game is so important because ultimately we can have you fresh for a training week, but your match day is where it all matters.

Paul 30:01

Yeah.

Jonny 30:02

You can't see a manager going, oh, we trained really well Monday to Friday, but we lost people don't care.

Paul 30:08

Yeah.

Jonny 30:09

Yeah. It's irrelevant. so I think the managing of the week is, has been a real, change in a sense of what the championship offered in comparison to the premier. And also for me personally working within the academy from a developmental sense or developmental hat going into a performance environment where you match day is your bread and butter, is your key focus, but it, makes the week feel a lot more purposeful.

Paul 30:38

Yeah.

Jonny 30:39

and then when the outcome comes and hopefully a positive one, it also makes it a lot more rewarding as well.

Paul 30:45

you mentioned working with Neil earlier on and, his conversation about environment and being as one team. how does that get implemented in the everyday? What does that, actually look like, especially now considering, we're talking about elite level football now, where we're Europe, Premier League. What does that look like on a daily?

Jonny 31:05

So you said something really interesting and I think again, the guys watching and yourself will be, under no illusions that the way the game is going, it's very, tactical. It's very in depth. There's so much information that's thrown around, whether it's from set players, whether it's physical data and outputs in your GPS, whether it's formations, whether it's, whatever, the analysis side of things. And There's so much thrown on the player psychologically that it can just be information overload. And I think sometimes the aspect of the human needs to come into play because ultimately the players aren't robots. Yeah. And for us to have that connection and the goal keeping coach and the role, of us dealing with such small numbers and having that relationship. So we have days where we go heavy on social. and again, I think it's quite, even in the modern day, like a lot of European influx and they look and they see the the social aspect and it can sometimes be going, oh, what are they doing there? they're playing head tennis or they're playing two touch.

Paul 32:13

Yeah.

Jonny 32:14

Cuts has got a really good game where we play two touch, but we play it in a small grid. and basically there's balls everywhere and if you hit balls, you lose lives and X, y, z Then there's, a, again, if you, don't mind me sharing this, there's money on it. Yeah. and again, I'll say this quite lightly, some the more, some of the money that, that Robin than some of the senior boys in comparison to us is a lot different. So when we're playing for 50 quid, I am, I definitely don't want to lose. it can get quite intense, but I think it's really good, that we have that, 'cause it keeps it competitive. It keeps you psychologically engaged in the session. And I think when we implement that at the start of training for 10, 15, 20 minutes, when they then go into the session up here, they're firing and they're already ready to go because again, you don't mind me saying there's been many times, whether you're a young kid or you're a senior goalkeeper, you'll roll out bed one day and you'll be going. i

Paul 33:19

don't fancy it Today or, yeah.

Jonny 33:21

so like having that aspect at the start is so important and Neil's design and his processes in the sense of what the session looks like. He's big on the reactiveness of not only the feet and how we move and the mechanics, but also the mind stimulating the mind, the hand-eye coordination. So we do a lot of table tennis leading into the training and it, it's a tiny ball and it's intense and it's quick, but when you come out, you take it around the grass, the guys are there upstairs. So it's really, creative and meticulous and in what he does. but the, say that the cohort we're working with have been really receptive to that.

Paul 34:03

it's interesting because that's almost mirrors the way you teach academy players, right? make it fun, make a game of it, Yeah. Make, get them involved together. so it's interesting to hear that even at that elite level, there's a certain part of the keepers that still need that, fun, the dopamine, the adrenaline, the competition, going back to match day, but like, when the young keepers are watching, from the terraces, they're watching their idols warming up, down on the pitch, what's some of the things that they can take away from themselves, with preparation for their own match deal or just in general?

Jonny 34:36

I'd say the biggest thing, and I'd say this from a scouting perspective, when I've gone to watch goalkeepers in the past, I think you get a lot from them when they're not in the working set. So in a sense of if they're doing a crossing practise, don't watch the final action of how they're claim the cross watch. When they're going to get the balls. What, when they're standing by the goal.

Paul 34:56

Yeah.

Jonny 34:57

How are they standing? What's their body language portraying to the rest of the, not only to their peers, but to the rest of the stadium, to they look calm, Do they look, assured, do they look in control or is it the opposite of that? And I think you get a lot from that. So for me, that would probably be the one thing you look at.

Paul 35:15

I guess it's one of those things that like, must be really hard to see that at a young age because they're all full of beans and on, and when they're not in the moment, it can be really boring for them at that age and then all of a sudden, I can imagine they get to a certain age and it just clicks for them, which is when a lot of them get picked up. But it's interesting that and again, it's not something that they can really be coached on, but something they can be conscious of themselves so that when they get to that age, they can do that.

Jonny 35:45

I think it's, sorry to interrupt on that. I think it's important that you go through a process of being conscious and again, touching on kind of Neil and what we deliver to the group. It's whether it's the save choice and the outcome or whether it's a psychological coping skill. You have to be self-aware and conscious of, what you're doing in the moment, but then take it to a subconscious outcome because naturally in game you'll revert back to your subconscious because the game is so quick and reactive, so important to dip in and out of those two states. But I think, like you say, when you become more senior in yourself and more self-aware of what you are as not only a goalkeeper, but as a person, really, important to dig between the two sticks

Paul 36:29

And it's such an influential position as well. you don't quite see as many keepers who are captains of their team anymore as you used to back in the 90's and the, early 2000's but it's still such a massively influential position and I see a lot of young keepers, 3 or 4 goals passed and the chins go down and I can only imagine the impact that has on the rest of the team. So to a certain extent, regardless how you feel inside, it's about maintaining that calm exterior that helps give your team the confidence.

Jonny 37:00

Yeah.

Paul 37:00

you think that the young keepers today understand enough about what an outfield coach would want from them? How does a young goalkeeper cross that barrier between, I'm just a shots stopper for quite a lot of the young period of time to be part of that outfield team and be effective and be noticed.

Jonny 37:23

I think firstly just on that aspect is if you were to break down goalkeeping from, say defending the goal, defending the area space and im possession, if I was to say, who's the best at defending the goal, you'd say x. If you were to say defending the space scenario, you'd say Y if you were to say in possession, you'd say another. So I think the key message in that is there is no one size fits all approach. Just like an outfielder. They, the goalkeeper will possess a super strength and they'll have areas of the game that they're not so comfortable with. and I think from a grassroots level, it's really important that the managers understand what their goalkeeper is, what their strengths are and can you more importantly utilise that on a match day? Because like you say, we don't have the luxury of when, you're working at senior level and the club has a philosophy or a style of play and they go and recruit a goalkeeper based on what that philosophy is. I think when you're at grassroots, level, the education of the role is so important. and like you say, my kinda advice to any goalkeeper at that level is to just go and explore as many different avenues as possible. So go and get the ball from your centre half in the wackiest position, go and be brave and come and effect that cutback cross or that aerial duel or go out and block spread. because you'll find so much more out about yourself.

Paul 38:56

Experiment while you're in the development age. you're there to have fun.

Jonny 39:00

Yeah.

Paul 39:00

And I think, there's, I think that's something that I, personally try and influence with my son is, if you're out there having fun, then you'll naturally experiment with things, but try not to feel it. There's a lot of pressure in it, isn't It It's, a lot. It's hard. what would you say is, in your opinion, the biggest misconception young keepers have about playing out from the back?

Jonny 39:23

It always has to be short. the actions in game with the ball at feet is undeniable in a sense of the responsibility of it and the amount of contacts with the ball at the feet, you're gonna have. So the goalkeeper, whether they like it or not, has to be efficient and effective with the ball, at the feet, left and right foot. so we, go, we call first line passing, with your back line, second line in your midfield, third line into your top line. You have to have an array of clubs in your locker to be able to execute. And I think it's like anything, when you say to the, to the goalkeeper, right gonna play from the back today, they think, oh, I need to pass it. I send it back. Yeah. Really there's so much more to that.

Paul 40:10

Yeah.

Jonny 40:12

and I think, like you say, they,the amount of times that you see it, in academies, you see it in any kind of youth phases where they go, the coach showed me a play, play from back, play short. And it's such a close-minded way of thinking. I think the big, the key message in it is almost to watch the first team since the boss came in and he's big on a word, that he uses a lot in the build and he, says be adaptable. And it, it's such a refreshing way of putting it.

Paul 40:43

Yeah.

Jonny 40:43

Because with, again, in the top level with the analysis of the opposition, what you have, you play in a certain way. I'm telling you now, the next Saturday you play a team will be set up to combat the way you play. So you have to be adaptable. Yeah. And the same in the concept in the grassroots. If you wanna go short only do it once, twice, three times, then the next one might go, your fullback might go into your nine.

Paul 41:07

Yeah.

Jonny 41:07

Might go over the top.

Paul 41:09

Yeah.

Jonny 41:09

And then it changes the dynamic, and then you can go back to playing short. So it's a bit of cat and mouse almost. and I think that's where your intelligence comes in.

Paul 41:17

Yeah.

Jonny 41:17

And you've got a, I think common sense has to come in a little bit, but I think in the game now, coaches are what i'd class as super coaches in a mentality of the detail and the education that players are getting now at a young age, technically and tactically through their analysis is it's never any better than it's ever been. And it's brilliant because the game understanding is top. But what you're actually doing is you're taking away the emphasis of them making the decision in the moment, in the pressure. Which brings me back to my earlier point of just keep exploring, just keep failing and you'll learn. And the more situations you put yourself in time, after time, after time, after time, you're gonna build those neurological patterns of, oh, this happened the last time I did it, so why don't I change it or change this or change the way I pass it into. Okay. And that's where your learning comes. So really, like big message to just stay adaptable in who you are and, but work on the technical aspects of what your choice of club is gonna be. And I mean club by as in what your, pass is gonna be.

Paul 42:31

Yeah. obviously, I gave you some questions before we came here, but there is something else that's occurred to me whilst we've been sitting here talking, and I'm interested to hear your opinion on it I'm a young goalkeeper. I wanna be picked up by academy. I wanna play professional. Do they need to play Premier League first, first division grassroots to be able to be picked up by scouts at that age? Or do, are there other options for them?

Jonny 42:55

I think the biggest thing from a scouting perspective is, especially at those young ages, when we look at it, the key message for me is do they have a unique, a unique trait, that makes 'them stand out from the rest? Now, you'll probably ask me, what is that? It could be anything. It Could be this boy stands ridiculously high in the goal and in the build and he just wants to get the ball all the time. And he's like an extra outfield player and he's, bump, bump,bump could be that, or he could just be an absolute demon in the goal and just makes, saves constantly just like getting hit and block and brave as a lion. Or he could just be, have a personality, a pitch personality that we talk about where his shoulders are back, his voice is commanding his back line. He's got that aura about him that's like rubbing off onto the rest of the team and actually his in game actions will be somewhat lower because he's actually diffusing situations without them becoming natural outcomes with regarding to the goalkeeper. so I think the key thing we look at is do they have a clear super strength? Because ultimately you can be good across the board, but what's gonna get you noticed is having a real super strength and polishing that super strength. But it could be absolutely anything.

Paul 44:11

I guess in answer to that, then it doesn't matter whether they're playing division one, whether they're playing division three, division five, probably more likely to be spotted at the high level games, but

Jonny 44:19

yeah. Yeah. And I think especially going back to your, your experiences of what you're exposed to at a young age. I think if you're at, if you're at top team where you're at the best team and you're standing there and you're standing with your trophies at the end of your tournaments and you've got a chest full of, it's full of trophies, but actually I've probably only saved 3 shots all season. it's different.

Paul 44:39

Yeah.

Jonny 44:40

put yourself in the firing line and I think it's hard now more than ever because of, I think social media and pressure to perform and people look at the outcome and the outcome is the trophy.

Paul 44:51

Yeah.

Jonny 44:52

Or the outcome is the kit or the picture or whatever that is. And I think, like you say, that the, process behind it of just having good habits and doing things right. and really walking off the pitch going, you know what, I got better today is the key message development is so key at that age. Keep failing And failing until you learn because when the moment comes when you are warming up in front of 52,000, you can't fail.

Paul 45:18

Yeah.

Jonny 45:19

and I'll put that bluntly because there's detrimental factors to it.

Paul 45:24

Yeah.

Jonny 45:24

But because you failed so many times, leading to that point, you have a coping mechanism of how to execute.

Paul 45:31

Yeah.

Jonny 45:31

So really powerful and an important takeaway I'd say with regard to that.

Paul 45:37

Amazing. I've got 2 questions that remain. one kind of following on from what we've got and then one, bringing it back to you. We spend a lot of time asking questions about the keepers and academies and careers and things, but for the parents that are out there and they've got a young goalkeeper, what do you often find that parents don't understand about the goalkeeper journey that, that you wish they did, that you wish that you could pass on to them or ingrained in them in some way?

Jonny 46:05

It's bumpy. it's not linear. Yeah. I think that's life in general. I'm doing a lot of research now on the psychological aspect of the game. 'cause I felt it was what I lacked as a player and maybe was the reason why I didn't reach the heights of maybe that was once expected of me. I could perform but not consistently. And the burden I carried psychologically in that almost perfectionism mindset. And I think a lot of goalkeepers and parents, of goalkeeper coaches out there have a perfectionist mindset that everything has to be perfect. And I think that was the key message, even on the camps to do, you could have a 100 actions of whatever in, in the domains of the session. And your telling me you're gonna get a 100 clean. It's not possible.

Paul 46:57

Yeah.

Jonny 46:58

The key information and again, in context is to make sure, are you learning? Are you conscious of what you're good at and what you're not good at? And then more importantly, when you cross the white line, can you then execute that in the moment? Because you might only have one chance at it.

Paul 47:15

Yeah.

Jonny 47:15

So you could get it right 99 times out of a 100, but if you step across the white line and you can't in that moment, then that becomes a problem, doesn't it? So I think understanding that scruffy and it might not look clean and there'll be a lot of maybe throwaway comments with regards to the outfielders, or whether that's a coach or other parents that don't understand the position. it can be lonely. the biggest thing I would say is allow your child, son or daughter to just speak. Allow them to speak before you speak. Ask them what they think and more importantly, what they were feeling. And then that allows reflection and that's when your learning can come in and you can guide them. So that would be my probably my key message with regard to that.

Paul 48:04

we talked about shay given back at the beginning, and a little bit different really, because shay comparatively to some of the keepers that we've had mentioned in the interviews before is relatively modern in his keeping. But how do you think shay would've coped into today's game?

Jonny 48:23

Shay, I hope you're not watching this first and fore most. no, I think he's a, I think the first thing that's gonna spring everyone's mind is his physical profile. Because now you look at the goal keeping domains, and, I'll say this, we're standing in a tunnel on a, match day on Saturday, and, you're seeing the size of some of these guys, oh my God. Like I'm six foot 4 and they're absolute beasts. take Sanchez for example, at Chelsea physically to a point where it is like the peak of athleticism Yeah. Peak performance. But I think interestingly, there's so much more to the game than just that.

Paul 49:01

Yeah.

Jonny 49:02

And I think what shay possessed was, his anticipation and his reflexes on his goal line.

Paul 49:09

Yeah.

Jonny 49:10

And his probably his, technical outputs in game was so well executed that I feel now, not just in goal keeping, but in football in general, the game has gone so physical heavy that we've actually negated so much of the basics. Your save choices, your scoop, your volley, your collapse, save, your step and push. your crossing techniques. All these aspects now, even at senior level, I feel aren't mastered because cultures value either physical profiles or they value maybe the tactical aspects before you've even mastered your bread and butter, which is like your level 1 and level 2. So you take it in, you take it in kinda your strides in the sense of, when you're in the moment you're in the pressure, you'll always revert back to your technique. If your technique's poor, then, you're already off to negative start. If your technique's good, it will, it can get you out of, less than ideal situations because you'll always be dealt a raw hand in a sense of being caught outta a position or, I'm, in like a grey space, no man's land. but if your technique's good, yeah, it can get you out bother. So I think that's what Shay possessed, that kept him ahead of his time in that aspect.

Paul 50:33

I love it. I love it. Jonny, it's been an absolute privilege to have you one. Thank you very much

Jonny 50:39

Thank you. Really appreciate it.

Paul 50:41

And we'll see you for another episode shortly. Thanks. Bye.