Simon Smith: What Sir Bobby Robson Taught Me

From non-league beginnings to Champions League nights and England duty, Simon Smith’s story is a masterclass in resilience, adaptability, and pure goalkeeping obsession.
 As a player, coach, and mentor, he’s lived every level of the game – from grassroots development to standing beside Sir Bobby Robson on the Newcastle United bench, shaping the next generation of keepers.

In this powerful conversation, Simon shares the lessons he’s learned from over two decades at the top – what it takes to handle pressure, how to stay consistent under scrutiny, and why understanding football as a whole is crucial for every goalkeeper. He reflects on his work with legends like Shay Given and Jordan Pickford, the evolution of the modern goalkeeper, and the mindset shifts needed to thrive in today’s high-stakes game.

Whether you’re a young goalkeeper dreaming of the Premier League or a coach seeking deeper insight into the craft, this episode offers rare access to one of England’s most respected goalkeeping minds.

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Transcript

Paul: 0:02

I caught up with a man who has worked with some of the best in the world. Simon's renowned for his goalkeeper coaching. He's worked with FA Youth. From U16s to U20s. He's worked with some of the best in the business in Newcastle United and he served time under Sir Bobby Robson. There are some phenomenal and funny stories that go along with it all including the pressure that Sir Bobby put on the team around him in expectations and anticipation of results. I find Simon's mind incredibly interesting. He's a self-described goalkeeping anac, and he loves Goalkeeping. There's nothing that he doesn't know about the business, about the journey, about the career, and about the coaching. I'm sure you're going to really enjoy this episode. Watch out for the stories about Martin Dubrovnik and Jordan Pickford and many others. And just sit back and enjoy.​Hello. Welcome to this edition of Catching Up from EVOGK podcast. Welcome. I'm Paul, today's guest is none other than the fantastic Simon Smith. Simon, welcome to the show. Thank you very much. So today we're joined by, one of the most prominent and respected figures in English goalkeeper coaching. Simon, was born in Aycliffe in 1962, enjoyed a remarkable playing career, racking up over 500 appearances for Gateshead, including a run of more than 400 consecutive games, a record that speaks to his consistency, resilience, and professionalism. In'99, Simon stepped up from Newcastle United's Academy to become First Team Goalkeeping coach, under Sir Bobby Robson. None other than the legend himself. Yeah. during that time, Newcastle played Champions League Football came close to winning the Premier League, and then after Sir Bobby's era, Simon moved into a national role with the FA, serving as Goalkeeping coach for England's U16's to U20's squads, helping to develop some of the country's top young talents, including Jack Butland, Sam Johnson, and the name that's on everybody's tongue. Still to this day, JP1, Jordan Pickford in 2015. He then returned home to Newcastle United as head of Goalkeeping, overseeing first team and academy development for another seven years. Guiding Premier League keepers such as Tim Krue, Martin Dubrovka, and Freddie Woodman. From non-league football to Champions League Nights and England Duty, simon's Journey bridges every level of the game. And today we're going to explore what's changed, what's stayed the same, and what the next generation of goalkeepers can learn from one of the best in the business. Simon, I feel like, James has lined me up with some absolute, like amazing bios that I have to read out. it's tough to follow all that, right? Welcome. So to, to set the tone, you've just also delivered, a whole day Goalkeeper camp with EvoGK as well. Yes. so thank you very much for, delivering that. How are you feeling?

Simon: 3:09

No, I've, I really do thoroughly enjoy You my, when, I'm listening to you read the bio out that it's great and you think, yeah, it's great. But where I first started was coaching young goalies. That was, the thing. I, had my own, when I stopped playing, I decided that I was going to go into coaching. I set up Simon Smith Goalkeeping and delivered just as James does at Evo Goalkeeping, Simon Smith Goalkeeping. I did it nationwide to start off with, and obviously locally as well. And that's always been my kind of passion. and I think it gave me a really good grounding and you could try to do, saying about innovation and different things and. Try to do everything in my power to get the best out of young goalies. and to this day I still meet people who will say to me, oh, I remember coming on one of your courses. I'm nearly well, I am, I'm as proud of that as, people that I've gone on to work with later on who've become internationals and all the rest of it. as I say that, that's really where my start was. So

Paul: 4:21

it's it, and the passion's clear to see, right? Like when I see you working with the Keepers, I can see that you just enjoy every moment of bringing them onto that next level. And no matter what level they're at, what age group they're at, there's always something that you're adding to the sessions. And I think that, the, kids themselves can see that they respond to it. It's brilliant. It's amazing to see. It really is. the first question I've asked all of our guests, Simon, is who was your Goalkeeping idol when you were growing up and why?

Simon: 4:49

I've always been being a bit of a, for want of a better phrase,'goalkeeper anorak', and going, and I'm going to show my age now, but going back, so Pat Jennings would've been one. Bruce Grobelaar, Neville Southall, were they outside the norm of the time, if, weren't probably considered or were considered, they had something a bit different, the outliers. yeah. So you got, you had your very, like Peter Shilton. Absolutely. world class. there was a, line wasn't, there was like Peter Shilton, Joe Corrigan, Phil Parks, Jimmy, those people. But there were, there was also, like you say, the outliers, which gave, gave and showed something a bit different or could do something, which is a bit different. I was, thinking about that the weekend, like Pat Jennings was the first person I ever saw, throw the ball past the halfway line, and then they're talking about Nick Pope doing it. Yeah. And there's though, it's like just something that's come from the moon. It's only Nick Pope could do it. Yeah. I'm having to go at Nick, but it's yeah, great. He's got a great throw. Yeah. But as I say, I, I saw people do that 25 years ago. Yeah. And as I say, that's what made people, Bruce Grobelaar just lifted for me the position to a different level, coming to the edge of the box to catch crosses, some of his positions, and I know he's playing for Liverpool who have more possession and people will argue that. But he, brought something different to it. And, maybe also that kind of, I was going to say mad cap, that's not the right word, but he was, He was different. He was enthusiastic. And I say he did things which weren't the norm. Sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn't. But it, made you think about the position, how influential you could be as a goalie. Yeah. Whereas before that, perhaps it was stay on your line, very safe, make you dive in, saves just work like a six yard box, if And he expanded it.

Paul: 6:48

Yeah.

Simon: 6:49

And then you had Neville Southall who was Mr. Consistency. But obviously what I loved about Neville was he came from non-league football. Yeah. And then became probably the best in the world at a time for a period of time. So as I say, it was more, yeah, those people who Big nev. Yeah. Big nev. Yeah. Big nev. So

Paul: 7:08

it's, funny'cause almost to the letter, every kind of idol that we've talked about so far in the show. I've had the pro cards for when I was a kid. I've mentioned this before on the show, I used to, love Tony Norman was my idol for something. When I was a goal, when I was a kid, when I was idolizing and being a goalkeeper, I never made it. absolutely don't have the talent or the height or, whatever. But, when I think back to that pack of cards I had, my prize possessions were the goalkeeper cards. Yeah. And I think it's true. would you agree that, same for a lot of the young goalkeepers I see the kids who were attracted to being a goalkeeper at an early age all have that personality. They're all of a similar, like mind and, all have their own unique quirkiness?

Simon: 7:50

You need to be d there's all that mad to be a goalie different to be a goalie. I, don't think that some people quite. Quite get it. Yeah. That you do have to be a bit different to want to be a goalie. Is a glamorous position, but it's not a glamorous position. You're under more pressure than anybody else, but you're only part of the game in certain periods, like when it comes to you.

Paul: 8:12

Yeah.

Simon: 8:14

and, I was, like I said to the kids today, it does require a different skill set and even more so now, that skill set really has expanded with now. I'm going back in my playing my last season, I think at Gateshead the rule changed where you couldn't pick it up and bounce it around your box and all the rest of it. So you had to, all of a sudden overnight people had to become proficient with their feet and it was, when it first started, it was as long as you got it cleared. Even if you put it into rose in the stand it, they were happy. Now it's like if you don't pick the right pass out, the crowd starts mumbling and. people are expecting the same kind of level of foot passing that outfield players do. Yeah. So that skillset set really has, to me, it's, expanded the, job and the role of the goalkeeping coach. the goalkeeper for one, but also the, goalkeeping coach as well. Coaches themselves. Yeah. Well, I'm

Paul: 9:08

going to come back to that because I think there's a little bit more that I'd like to discuss, but I'm going to, I'm going to tack that on the end of the conversation. I want to kinda step back to 1999, So you've, been working in Newcastle Academy and then all of a sudden you've stepped up to work under Rude Hollet and then Bobby Robson, sir Bobby, what was that leap like?

Simon: 9:28

going to be really honest, I had done other, I had a little spell at Carlisle working in first, just part-time working in first Team football. And then as I say, as you say, working at the academy and then stepping into that world Yeah. Was, again, like you said before, be for coming from non-league football and not making it as a professional, similar to yourself, too small. always wanted to a professional player, the best stand you could, but not making it and then being thrown into that where, I think the phrase is flying by the seat of your pants. and you get the job. And I'll be honest, when, so Bobby came, he'd had Mike Kelly, a legend in goalkeeper coaching, for England, and I thought, he'll, bring Mike Kelly. that was my thought. Yeah. And I thought, And then we trained at Cheley Street at the time. And I remember one day I was walking through the reception and he said, oh, can I have a word? And he pulled me into this. It wasn't even his office. It was like somebody, working at the Cheley Street Sports Center. You probably thought this is him, right? And I thought, oh, it's going to get rid of me here. And, he said, look, he said, you don't know me and I don't know you. And at that point I'm thinking, hang on a sec. I, do, I said, Bobby Robson. He said, but we'll see how we get on. And, and we'll go from there. And, that was it. And then for the next five years, he never, ever spoke about it. Never said he. And to be fair, he expected a lot from you. he, taught me a lot about a massive amount, really, when I look back now. he was, don't get me wrong, a lovely, a really nice man, genuine, all the things that people say about him, but he was hard to work for. Yeah. He expected everything from you

Paul: 11:11

Task master, right? Yeah.

Simon: 11:12

Really. And and if you didn't do it right, he told you, and if, and he did it in funny kind of ways. So if Shay made a mistake, I got the blame. because it's obviously my responsibility, but on the other hand, like when Shay got a new contract, he'd say to me, Simon, you've helped him to get that. Yeah. So from that point of view, and from a practical coaching point of view, I have to be honest, it's there was no DVDs or YouTube or whatever. Yeah. It wasn't easy watch players things as wasn't easy. it was what that you'd gone through yourself as a goalie, what you thought worked? yes. Maybe I had seen some other people work, so there was a bit of that going on. I had, like I said before, my background was working with young goalies, with kids, and I did. I had taken some of that with me to the first team. And I can remember we were away on a European trip and the three goalies at the time, there was Shay Given, Steve Harper, and I think it was John Carrels, who we'd signed, said to me, oh, can we have a word af It was after dinner. And I thought, oh, know, they're going to get rid of me here. And they said, oh look, we really enjoy what you're doing. But sometimes you do that many things like, I call it now ball familiarity know, passing it around your waist through your legs, figure of 8, bit like basketball. Yeah. But all with the ball. And I thought, I'm doing great here. They're loving it. And they said, because you're doing too much of that. And so when we go with the team. And we're now facing Alan Shearer shooting at 80 mile an hour. We're not quite ready. And I thought Oh, okay. Yeah. Fair comment. And, to be fair to them. good for that. Good for them to tell me.

Paul: 12:54

Yeah.

Simon: 12:55

but it, it, was a, it really was a learning, a steep learning curve for me because as I say, he was sitting on the bench, which I was lucky enough to do. It was Sir Bobby, John Carver, or another coach, Steve Clark maybe, and then myself. So if anything did go wrong, and I'm not saying he, to be fair to Shay he didn't make many mistakes, but if something went wrong, he'd, he, the manager would say to me, Simon, what's he doing there? had to take that responsibility.

Paul: 13:27

Yeah.

Simon: 13:27

And he expected you to also know. Yeah. and at the time I was going through, people say I was doing my coaching awards.

Paul: 13:35

Yeah.

Simon: 13:36

So there was that kind of thing. I get into the situation now'cause I deliver some coach education stuff for the FA, and they say, Why as a goalkeeping coach do you need to know outfield play? Having now had the experience of sitting next to Sir Bobby Robson, you needed to know outfield play. and I'll say as I've gone through, I then obviously was lucky enough to work with Steve McLaren, fantastic coach, Rafa Benitez. Unbelievable coach. And if you didn't know football, you would, I would've struggled badly. So yeah, as I say, and a lot of that really did come from, Sir Bobby. I did have the odd faux pas when sitting at the table. He, said, I think Alan Shearer was injured and he said, oh, we've got a problem, but we don't know who to play up front. And none of the other coaches said anything. So I thought, oh, put, throw me 2p. And I said, oh, I quite Laurent Robert, we had at the time. Yeah, I think he could play up front. And he just looked at me and he went. Simon just stick to the goalkeeper. that's, that again, a learning thing. It's okay, you want your opinion on goalkeeper, don't speak about outfield. Yeah. Yeah. But, yeah.

Paul: 14:45

it's like I can't imagine it's almost, I, guess it's almost like you've gotta reinvent yourself when you get a new manager, right? Or you start a new club, you've got a, Eric said it best in the last episode. You gotta go in and ask what they want from you because it's not about what you, it's not just what you bring to the table. It's what they need you to bring to the table as well, right? Yeah.

Simon: 15:05

Yeah. I've got to be, honest, when I look back now, I was unbelievably lucky because I was at the same club and I had seven different managers. for me it was always the worst. the worst period was when like, when to Bobby got sacked. Yeah. and it's you've worked with a legend and he got sacked. And it's ah. Okay. Who's going to come next? Graeme Souness comes next eventually. And all I'm going to say about it is he wasn't Sir Bobby Robson. Nice, nice man. Really nice man. but it, he wasn't Sir Bobby Robson. And I found that really hard to deal with and ended up leaving. and then when I went back, obviously I had, like I'm saying Steve McLaren, Rafa, Steve Bruce, and then Eddie Howe. and the, period of be when one sack and the other one that, that's my worst thing of for foot of football. Yeah. Of not knowing whether you're going to retain your job.'cause

Paul: 16:03

quite a lot of the time it's back office

Simon: 16:04

team

Paul: 16:04

get pulled

Simon: 16:04

out and new managers and the awful thing is that I've seen two, two people who I'm very close to, go, but I've stayed and that's, and that is really difficult to get your head round. just as Eric said, you then need to go and. I to be fair, it dawned on me very early with Sir Bobby that I needed to say because I, was inexperienced, what do you need from me? What you know? And, as you do, when you said Bobby Robinson, he wrote me a letter, which I've still got, that he explained what he was looking for in a goalie, basically, and said, I had Laurie Sivell and I had, Paul Cooper at Ipswich. This is what I expected from them. I had Peter Shilton and Ray Clements for England. This is what I expected for them. And then, oh, okay. So I, got it all written down in a letter all about, and it wasn't, just technical. It was about, and them as a personality and what the difference was between different people and Yeah. And, I, have just taken that on. I think probably, I've got to say Rafa Benitez in particular, loved his loved Goalkeeping, was a real enthusiast about goalkeeping. I think the way that his coaching career, he, developed from. Through PE and basketball and all that. He had a real feel for it. So he was a, I've gotta say an absolute breath of fresh air, because he also made me start, I'm going, I was going to say, think about it in a different way, but he made me think about different things. Yeah. and after nearly every training session, he would come to me, even if we're just at dinner or at lunch, and he'd say what did you think today about the goalies? he'd keep asking me like random things, who's the best goalie? And he'd have to, and you couldn't just say he's passionate about it. He was passionate about it. Yeah. Really good. And for me at that time, it was good because it made, I've always, like I said, been a goalkeeping anorak. But it just because you knew somebody else was interested.

Paul: 18:03

Yeah,

Simon: 18:04

it was, it was, good.

Paul: 18:06

We're going to dive into a period that's quite tough for me to talk about as a Sunderland fan right now. so I remember being at school in,'99, 2000, 2001. We, went through some fantastic moments ourselves, and yet we were still in the shadow of Newcastle because you guys had some tremendous seasons around that time because, you're in the Champions League, you're almost winning the Premier League. so you had, what, four years under Bobby Robson, sir Bobby? Yeah. champions League Nights winning, almost winning the Premier League. what stands out in your memory of that time for you? is there any kind of stories or particular memories that

Simon: 18:45

I just, couldn't quite believe, that I was having that experience. like I said before, going from where I did unsuccessful to make it to a, professional if you want.

Paul: 18:56

Yep.

Simon: 18:57

And then being thrown into that arena where we are traveling to play Juventus and we're playing, and I'm, seeing people on the pitch that are, have been heroes or have been world class players. And then all of a sudden, I remember we played, Schalke, I think we played, or one of the German teams, and I ran into Harold Schumacher, he was the goalkeeper coach for this team. And obviously I'm working for him. And I ran in, I was cut, the lads were kicking the ball out, and I, ran and I caught it and I've nearly ran into him and I've looked, and, when you look at somebody and you think, oh my God, it's, and that really brought it home. and even as I say, like just the games themselves playing in the Premier League and seeing as I say, people that you'd seen on the tour, like Fabian Barthez played for Monday night at the time, and he was a particular favourite of mine again'cause he was a bit smaller But had great attributes and it's and then, we went to warm up and there he was standing in the tunnel. With a, a woolly hat on, and all he could say was that it was very cold in, Newcastle and, and that type of thing. And, yeah, honestly, the whole experience of it, and, I was still as well of an age where I could join in and obviously that's not your job, but there were opportunities where I got to join in and sometimes I couldn't quite believe that was happening, that I was getting an opportunity to train with people like Alan Shearer and Nobi Solano and Laurent Robert. Yeah. And you got to join in with these people where, from a playing point of view, they were, way beyond me. And, but I actually got a, chance to And the prime of their career at the time. Yeah. I actually got a chance to, work with'em and train with'em and, I, and. Yeah. and it was funny, I was thinking about that the other day when some, somebody said to me about, they were asking me about my coaching and all the rest of it, and I said, when I got that job with Sir Bobby, I was still felt like I, I could still play. But there, there is a background story to that is that, as I say, because Bobby was very harsh and he would question me nearly every game, if something went wrong, it might have been like, if he didn't throw it to the right person or he didn't throw it when he could have, and he'd say to me, Simon, what's he doing there? And what are you looking at? And it's I'm sitting here next to you. I, don't, and I said to, and eventually I, plucked up the courage to go and see him. And I could always remember I knocked on his door and I said, oh, could I just have a quick word? And he go, yeah, come in. And, I said, I said, I'm finding it quite hard on the bench when you're having a, go at me. And I'm, not quite sure what you want me to say. Do you want me to give you the full answer or just to acknowledge your comment? And I said, because, I may as well play myself. And when I said it, I thought, oh. And he said, just let me stop you there. He said, Simon, he said, whilst I'm the manager of this club, you will never play for Newcastle United. And I thought, oh, that was actually wasn't really me question. But yeah, as I say, he was just in that kind of thing. He was legend. I got, all right. Okay. So again, it through that you knew where you sat and you like stick, stick to the goalkeeper. Stick to the goalkeeping is a, classic, So I love it. I love

Paul: 22:22

it. And then shortly after that, you moved on to the fa on the national scene, and you are helping shape the next generation of England's keepers. when you look, at those players now, what, early qualities do you think that they shared that helped guide you to knowing that they were the ones?

Simon: 22:44

I got the job at the fa U16 to U20 Goalkeeping. what concerned me was that it was very, elitist and closed shop. So there was a bit of a, how do I say it? Bit of a thing of if you were selected and you did well, and I know this is what we're looking for'cause it is elite football, that's England, that you were in the squad forever. Forever. So what I decided to do was, with the backing of the fa obviously I decided to do a, run, start to run development courses. So anybody who'd been identified or had been close to being identified, I would bring them in together. So we would have a, weekend or a a half term, few days where I. It's like that possible and probable and, actual. So I actually got people who played for England. I got people who possibly would play for England and people who are probably, and my, where I was coming from, I wanted them because international get togethers are so short and you've got to be, it's like you meet on a Sunday, we're playing on Wednesday. You've got to be, it's a very short space of time to get people ready and to get, as I say, my, my, biggest thing came when, obviously the first introduction to international football was the, was the Victory Shield. So the Victory Shield was obviously a Scotland, England, Wales Island U16. So first introduction to international football. and it's live on Sky and it's I'm, slightly nervous about it. No pressure. Yeah. But what about some lad who's come from. and Leicester City, Washington. yeah, or yeah, wherever. And then they're throw, they're thrown into that live on television. And, the interest in it was massive because it was England, Scotland, and isn't it, that, that rivalry. But I'm going to say, so as I say on the back of that, I decided to try and give many, as many people, or many goalie as possible, the experience of, being involved in the buildup to international football. And that, that worked really well. So instead of it just being two or three goalies that were consistently in it, we would be able to mix and match and swap. and it says, Hey, give more people more the experience of doing it, which looking back, and I'm saying looking back because. I still have the lists of people who came and whether they went on to play for England or they went on to just have good careers in league football. it, I've gotta say I'm not, it worked. Yeah, it worked. And, it's quite, funny because, it was very early in the days of filming, but they used to film every session and I've got footage of, I'm going to use them, U17 for England, Jordan Pickford. But the number two goalie, was George Willis of Sheffield United. George Willis is now the Academy Goalkeeping coach at Sheffield United. Yeah. Jordan Pickford is name of the most cap or whatever, goalie for England. Yeah. And it's but on this U17 thing, the two of them are there doing all that stuff and all the rest of it. And it's yeah, it's worked for one, but it's set the other one on a career where he is played, but then he's got it into coaching and he's, and so there's, been that side of it as well. But, But as I say, looking back now, the, goalkeepers that I got to work with, it was funny, I was talking about this the other day. I, think probably 85% of them went on to have a career, and outta that probably 40%, 50% of them went on to play for England, even if it was just one game or a tournament or, I, really enjoyed it and I think what summed it up for me was when I left the fa and I'm going back to Newcastle and I'm, in the Premier League. we, there was some excellent, not just goalkeepers the excellent players coming through at the time. I was lucky enough in my time at the FAO won the U17 European championships. So I had Freddie Woodman, Dom Solanke, Joe Gomez, Lewis Cook, Just outta that team, Adam Armstrong, Patrick Roberts, who played here at Sunderland. And what was really nice was that, when you then met them in the Premier League, they remembered their time with the fa and they remembered you. And because, what you don't realise, and they made me realise is how special those times had been to them. I'm taking, and I, can remember, I had, as I say, even before that, there was like the Eric Dyers of this world, Kieran Trippier, who's at Newcastle now. Yeah. had all played and all had that thing of we played for England together. Yeah. And you were the coach. Yeah. and remembered a time or remember the story and that, that made that point bit more special. Yeah. Because at the time you're just getting on with it and you're hoping that they do well and you, but you don't know. But as I say that, that kind of, Made you appreciate how much one it had meant to them and probably how much it, it had also, been a great experience.

Paul: 28:03

People forget that every footballer, we, idolise people, we idolise footballers, we idolise Premier League players and it's easy to forget that they're real people, but they're just like you and I. they, have parents, they have family, they have kids, they have brothers and sisters. They have a house and they go home and they have dirty laundry and, somebody has to clean the dishes after they've finished eating. and all too often we, we set these people on pedestals and forget that they've got feelings and emotions. Now look at social media, the toxicity of social media and some of the things that are said to people. I might, I can't get my head around how we can forget that these aren't untouchables. Yeah. They are real people with real feelings and, experiences, so I can't imagine how fantastic it must feel to have been part of that formative journey. Yeah. And have touched them their lives in some way. Yeah. And, had an impact

Simon: 28:57

on them in a positive way. and not, like you're saying, but not always in the technical goal keeping Yeah. So you've also, like Jordan would be a classic. We, he was obviously prolific in U17s, went to the World Cup in Mexico and where you think we were away for six weeks, we got the semi-final and just having that experience with people off the field.

Paul: 29:21

Yeah.

Simon: 29:21

and we were in Mexico and then they said, oh, Jordan's looking a bit tired in training. And it's oh, he's, I think he's training well. Yeah, he's looking a little bit tired. So I thought, oh, I'll a chat. So I said, oh, one day just sitting probably like this. I said, are you okay? He said, I'm ringing me mam every day, so I Oh, great, well done. He said, yeah, but'cause of the time diff, it's three o'clock in the morning, he said, and I'm sharing a room with somebody, so I'm having to go in the bathroom to ring on a landline at three o'clock in the morning. And I said I'm not surprised you're tired. But it is just little things like that people don't get. And as I say it just, yeah, and I think, like you say, also, when you, see them in the paper and I, that's another side of them. Sir Bobby used to say, keep off the front, stay on the back page, and that kind of thing. And at the time you thought, oh, that's a bit of an up. But that's, there's a lot in that. The other bit that really gets me is when they, there's a lot of criticism now. A lot of criticism, and there's a criticism. Because of social media where it's basically it's open season. You, can say anything.

Paul: 30:34

Yeah.

Simon: 30:34

And, when you know what people, how hard they've worked, and like you say, and this don't get me wrong, I know they get well paid for, but it's a short career and they've worked hard to get to where they are. They have, and they've given up going out with their mates. Yeah. And, having a, childhood if you want, or a, or, even a, youth Yeah. Whatever, to get to where they have. And it's yeah. I, I have, I really do. It's like people will say to me, I might be, saying, who's your favourite goalie? And I'll say, Buffon. And it wasn't just because he was a great goalie, but it was the way that he, played for so many years at the top level. Yeah. And people do not realise how difficult that is. Yeah. And, he might have had the odd up and down along the way, but to, stay at that level for that length of p time. Is Alan Shearer would be another, don't get me wrong. leading goal, score all the bits and go with it. But as a person,

Paul: 31:32

yeah,

Simon: 31:33

to stay at that level for that length of time, injuries and all, but to come back and, as I say at Tim Krul from a goalkeeping point of view, I think I mentioned this the other day, I came to Newcastle late in his career, even though I'd known him as a kid, but didn't get to work with him until Steve McLaren and loved it. Great. Worked really well together. He was playing ever so well, and then he gets injured playing for Holland. But to be fair, Tim, and then Raffa came and, he went left the club and all the rest of it, but then to come back and play at the level that he did, I have, as I say, I have nothing but admiration for the lads.

Paul: 32:11

I think we've touched on it a little bit, but there's, a lot of people out there who probably don't realise that goalkeepers aren't. Goalkeepers. obviously it's, different I think with a lot of the outfield positions.'cause you've got a lot of specialties. You've got midfielders, you've got wingers, you've got attacking midfielders, defensive midfielders. Your 6, your 8s, your 10s, you've got out and out strikers, you've got forwards. But people just see goalkeepers unless you're involved in the crowd. A Goalkeeper's a goalkeeper, Like they're just keep the goal, they, save the goals. That's, what it is. And I don't think anybody really, until you get one of those, Nick Pope's an example at the moment. You've got Robin Roefs for Sunderland. you've got some real personality behind it where they can actually change the momentum of the game. And, we talked with Eric about Man United having that rotation system. So different games called for a different style of keeping. do you think that's the way forward for professional clubs is to have different keepers for different scenarios? Or would you stick with that one Keeper players all the games and players with the team spirit?

Simon: 33:15

I've gone into that thing where I tried whether I was successful or not, was to teach everybody everything. So I was looking to get goalies to a level where they, could do everything and it didn't matter who played. I'm going to say this, I think sometimes in modern football, we're trying to make it too difficult. So I appreciate, and I'm, I appreciate that, like I said before, you've got to be excellent with your feet now, but you can teach people to be excellent with their feet. and if you look at, the Academy program now. They on when I go and watch Academy football, which isn't a lot, but I do go, I'm seeing some excellent technicians with their feet. Yeah. And that, that has been a that's just evolved through the, so they'll, they will get to a stage where everybody, all the goalies in academy football and going on are excellent with their feet. And it'll be like, alright, but we must not forget that the first role is to keep it outta the net. And we are so it's like I, I'm on a bit of a crusade at the minute to make sure you've got to do everything.

Paul: 34:24

Yeah.

Simon: 34:24

So an all round, an all you've got to be an all rounder, you can't be a great on the line, great at coming for crosses. You've got to be good at doing everything. Now, don't get me wrong, I know I'm not stupid enough to think everybody's going to be a 10 outta 10 at every technical thing, but the need to be at least an 8, And I think when you look at back, I was thinking about this the other day, going back to the Nick Pope throwing thing. There, there's always been goalies who've been outstanding at distribution. So Van Der Sar, Schmeical, Barthez, pat Jennings, I'm going back, as I say, years ago that, that's nothing new. But they've always, they were always seen as being good at distributing the ball. Now it's different. Now Ned, they could pick it up, but they still have the skills to be able to, I don't want to go nerdy and go into the technical things, but, so maybe they didn't have a side volley, which is the vogue of the moment, but they could deliver it in another way to, in that, in the situation now where you'd say side volley, they had a technique, whether it might be a half volley or a throw, which they could do the same. It would accomplish the same end goal. It would accomplish the same end. But what I'm seeing a lot at the minute is I'm seeing the end bit, but I don't see the beginning. So do we concentrate on throwing. Do as a coach. Now, if you went to academy football, is the throw encouraged? no. I'll side volley instead and I'm thinking, oh, they're not missing out a little bit because sometimes as he showed the other day, yeah, the throw is the way to get it there, probably more accurate than his kicking. as I say, I'm more the, and I think that's what I always, and I don't know whether that's because of where I came from, because I, when I got the job at Newcastle, I had two, I've got to say there two excellent goalies in Shay given and Steve Harper. Yeah. And they, and it's, I'm, not saying this, it was,

Paul: 36:17

I'm, just going to say it Simon. You guys robbed Shay Given off us. Yes, exactly. We were

Simon: 36:23

devastated. The story behind that was, he got me the sack because I got a little job at Sunderland with Peter Reid. So Alec Chamberlain was the goalie. they said to me, it was through Ricky Sbragia, who was the youth team coach at the time. Yeah. Ricky knew me that I'd worked for the FA and all the rest of it and that I lived in Whitley Bay. And, they needed somebody part-time just to think three days a week to come and take Alec Chamberlain. So I said, yeah, I'd love to. So came and did it. Got all the way through the season top, of the league, I think. Definitely. we, got promoted that season, did all the work, kept Alec going, and then 13 games to go, something like that. I got a phone call to say, Simon, we don't need you anymore. Oh, okay. I thought I was, it was it, you know something I've done something. I've said, no, We've got this lad on loan from Blackburn Rovers. He's going to go back to Blackburn for his coaching, for his goalkeeper coaching. so we don't need you. So I was sacked by sun. I wasn't sacked. I was given, I said, we don't need to come in anymore. Fine. So he comes, obviously history does what I don't know, 18 games. 18 games 13 clean Sheets, something unbelievable. Something like that. Yeah. What they forgot was that they had 14 games left. So the last game of the season promote, I think they were already promoted. I came back for, they, rang me, fair play to them and said, will you come back? We'll work with Alec for a week before the last game of the season. So I came back. Special appearance. Special appearance. They won the league. Fantastic. And then the following season, I'm at Newcastle working with Shaa Given, or the, maybe not that, but the season after. And, then I'm faced with Shaa and it's like I, and to be fair, I, thought, I'm not saying anything. I'm not going to, and then a few months into the thing, it was like, you did get me the sack. So it's, but that's, how, that's, they put you on the path, right? Yeah. Did put you on the path. A great experience, working with Peter Reid, Bobby Saxton, Paul Bracewell, Ricky, got the, David Priest was one of the young goalies at the time. yeah. And then your path crosses in different area. Mike Hooper came, weirdly enough, former Newcastle Goalie, Hoops came, and yeah.

Paul: 38:53

so then moving on to how the game's evolved, a lot of, there's a lot of change being made, especially to, to the goalkeeper's role in recent years. And when you look at the impact that VAR has on, goalkeeper in particular, and the enjoyment of the fans to some extent as well, What would you say is the biggest change that you've seen that's impacted the keepers and how are they combating that?

Simon: 39:19

like I said before, I think just being able to be, not just comfortable with your feet, but to be as good as have a range of passing and vision and delivery as a top midfield player now. somebody said to me the other day, the midfield player can give the ball away four times and nobody ever notices, but you give it away as a goalie once and you are under the spotlight. So from that point of view, it's not only the technical bit of being able to do it in the skill of, like I say, the vision and the delivery, but it's also if it goes wrong, dealing with it. And that, and, that's annoyed me a little bit because, managers have a, that style of trying to play out from the back. And it might not be your first pass that the goal he plays, it might be the second pass that is given away, but it reflects back on the goalie as it goes in the goal. But you never hear a manager come out and say, yeah, it was me. so I'm certainly going to say I've heard it. Maybe one say something like, yeah, I've told him to play like that and if he makes a mistake, but it's all right saying that. And even if he's a manager and know, he's going to pick you the next week. Yeah. But that, that knowing goalkeeper that affects you because you have either made the mistake or feel responsible in some way part for it. Yeah. And, the other bit of it is that the 30,000 people who are in the stadium don't actually know at that time that's what the manager said to you.

Paul: 40:39

Yeah.

Simon: 40:40

So that bit of it, I'm, I find a little bit, You are asking nearly for a different mindset. A bit of if I make a mistake, it doesn't matter. Yeah.

Paul: 40:49

Yeah.

Simon: 40:50

And the what annoys me, yeah, probably does annoy me a little bit about that, is if you go and watch academy football, they're the coaches are set in the ways of we want to play outta the back, play through the thirds. All the rest of it. It's I've taken away the initiative, right? It is, yeah. One, yeah, exactly. It's very prescriptive, so it takes away their thought and the decision making two, the consequences of it are not, they don't, the people or the crowd or the parents don't start saying that, oh, the coach isn't very good, is he? They he's trying to play at the back and they're not capable And even if they are trying to take the pressure off the goalie, it's still the people who are watching Yeah. And the goal themselves are still taking that responsibility. Yeah. Yeah. and I say I've, seen a bit of a change in the attitude of young goalies of, it doesn't matter if the goal goes in the net. And I'm not just talking about playing out of back, but it's that kind of mindset even to the level of, and then it goes too far by saying, yeah, we'll just keep it out the net. It doesn't matter how you do it. And it's no, it does. Yeah. Because if you can cut, like I said to the, spoil, the guys this morning, I said, if you can catch the ball and gain possession for your team, that's different from powering it out as, we saw at the weekend and somebody putting it in the back of the net. Yeah. So whilst I don't think there's been a change, as I'm actually speaking to yourself, I'm thinking that's where the change has come is that it's nearly a, mindset and an attitude change that you have to be in, in, one way, even more resilient and Yeah. And then you, and then all of a sudden, obviously Manchester City were the way Pep wanted to play. And the, hoo-ha about him getting rid of Joe Harte and bringing, first, Bravo in, and then obviously Ederson, that, that built it up to, another level. And then teams trying to copy what PEP does, but when they're not really capable, the players that they've got and maybe the goalie that they've got aren't capable of playing in that manner.

Paul: 42:52

Yeah.

Simon: 42:52

I think the way that coaching's go in of goal keeping coaching eventually maybe in another, I'll probably say even three, four years time, there will be goalies, more goalies who are very comfortable playing with their feet, and it's, and it'll be become the norm, not the exception. Yeah. So if I said to you like, come on and tell me the number. I go, oh, we, you go, oh, these, okay. And then there's, you get. I'm not naming names. The one, the ones who can't, will be the ones that be able to be, Yeah. Yeah. And so you, we would have a list. You'd say people who are very comfortable with their feet and competent. Yes. Then there'll be another level where competent, but still make the odd Rick awful pass. And then there'd be people like don't pass it back to, so you could go through that, but eventually they'll become no. All, the, people playing

Paul: 43:43

and Yeah. And that's only compounded by all the data and analytics and insight into the game. you describe yourself as a goalkeeping Anorak, but when I look at, when I look at, even just when I look at BBC sports app Yeah. And the analytics that are in there now, how many kilometers covered per and I'm sat there thinking, is that really a judgment of the games to yes. It's how hard people have worked. Yeah. But maybe they're running around in circles, I don't know. Yeah. How, what's your intake on, all that side of things? do you think that's a positive thing or is it detraction or

Simon: 44:18

a distraction? Using Sir Bobby Robson, he used to say, why do I need an analyst? Because I know how far they're running or how hard they're working. And I know he's saying that because he's had that experience. like obviously when I've met him, he's, done everything being the England manager, you name it, and being abroad and he's seen everything. so he knows.

Paul: 44:43

you've coached some huge personalities through the years. you've, already mentioned Shay who, let's be fair wasn't even the tallest of goalkeepers either, that he was, an interest in, JP1 you've got Dúbravka. what's your favourite story from during that time? What's you've gotta be something that's made you laugh over the years that you could, that you're allowed to share with?

Simon: 45:06

the funny thing is, the way that I got the job was a bit odd. Because I was working at the academy and then I, fell into it. And the previous goalkeeping coach at Newcastle had, was Terry Genoe, who was at Blackburn Rovers. So Shay had worked with Terry over the years and obviously Shay came from Ireland and he went to Celtic and he's been living away from home. And, he had a very close relationship with Terry Genoe very close. And, when I got the job, one of my first things that I said to the lad was, I'm never going to be your friend. I'll be your coach and I'll give you everything that I can at training and I'll stay behind with you, and I'll ask you to stay behind and I'll give you everything. But I'm not going to be your friend. I'm not going to take you out for dinner. I'm not going to take you for an Indian. And whether that was the right, and it is funny'cause I look now and I, see sometimes a little bit of the opposite. Like it's always nice to have a cuddle with somebody, but like before the game starts, I'm seeing excessive cuddling from goalkeeping coaches to goalies. And as I say, I made it quite clear that, so I've, as I say, I'm not sure which is the, if I'm being honest, I'm not sure which is the right way and the wrong way. You have to because it's one-to-one coaching you have or one to three or whatever you have to develop and you do develop because you're working with'em every day. like I work with the same two people

Paul: 46:43

Yeah.

Simon: 46:43

For 40 weeks. For four years.

Paul: 46:45

Yeah.

Simon: 46:45

You obviously become, and you get to know'em, but I don't really want to know them off the field.

Paul: 46:50

Yeah.

Simon: 46:51

I wanted to know them as goalies and to try and make them and help because to, two things that come out, like I'm saying, I don't want to be your friend and I might have to pick you. Now if they, if, Shay and Steve had ever found out that I had and I didn't, but that I picked them, that would've changed the relationship completely. Yeah. And other managers I've worked for have recognized that, I have a very close working relationship, which if they thought that I was making a decision on them, would it would fail.

Paul: 47:23

Yeah.

Simon: 47:24

So Rafa was extremely good. He dropped Robbie Elliot told Robbie at the changing room door that he was leaving him out. And also as Carl Darlo, came out, told him, but he didn't tell. And it sounds a bit odd, but he didn't tell me. So they then jumped across to me and one, they both said, so did you know I was playing? And I said, no. Did you know that I was dropped? No. Ah, Okay. So I'm just there to work with him and we had a, a thing with Shay where he, got injured, he was out the team, then he was ready to come back and he wasn't happy. And he, and so I remember Bobby, so Bobby saying to me. Simon, don't get involved. Just coach them. Get Yeah. Just do your work. If, they, want to walk in, let them walk in, just don't get involved, but just do your work as if nothing had happened.

Paul: 48:12

Yeah.

Simon: 48:12

And that, and I, as I say, those kind of things that, so that's a long way of answering your question. So funny stories, I don't because I'd just pretty limited on the picture, right? Yeah. I'm limited because I saw them every, like I'm saying, every day for fun. That's interesting though, right? Yeah. That's, and, it's quite funny because like I'm saying, and I see some of the people and, it is about how you get that relationship and how you think, I, always said to them, I'm going to work and I'll, make you the best that I can make and I'll give you the best that I can give you. And I'm hoping that they felt that they improved because of what I was doing. And it was quite funny. I told Martin Dubrovka, Recently how we got him from, not spot or was it spot or, one of them anyway. And how we got him. And he was, and he had no idea of the story. Yeah. And the end of the story was he came to Newcastle United on Loan and he came and the first week he didn't save any balls. It was too quick for him.

Paul: 49:17

Yeah.

Simon: 49:18

But at the end of the Rafa said to me, what do you think? Said, but you're seeing for himself, he doesn't save anything in the shooting practice. Second week comes, I was, now he miles off slightly panicking. Yeah. Third week started to save a few now. So I'm telling Raffa start to save a few. Great. Week four comes. Oh, he's getting up to speed now from where he is come from playing in front of 5,000 people. I know he's in national goal, but starting to look like a, week five. Oh yeah. Week six, play Crystal Palace. Carl saves a penalty, keeps a clean sheet. Week seven. How did Martin do? Oh, excellent. This week. Been really good in training, looking really sharp. I'm going to play him against Man United. Can you tell Carl that he's dropped? Can you tell Carl he's dropped? Ah, Okay. I'm looking at the managers that say, I, know I'm giving an opinion here, there's a bit of a difference between making a league debut, premiership debut against Man United at home when Carl's playing really well. But Rafa's a manager and he obviously saw something that yeah, maybe Martin had that Carl didn't, or whatever it might be. And you have to respect that. Work with it, get on with it, and the rest, the, rest is history. But I'm telling, I was telling Martin the story of Rafa saying to me every week, what do you like? And he, and obviously they, and, the funniest thing was he, Martin then said to me as I've finished, he said, you know what? He is, when I first came, he said, I. He said, I didn't think I was going to make it. Knew. He thought, I thought I was miles off. He knew. He knew. Yeah. And it's oh my God. And so he was like a bit taken aback and I was, because he said, oh, I knew. And it's yeah.'cause they, because they're professional, they wouldn't admit to it that they thought they were miles off. So even now, I feel as well, I'm still learning in some ways. But, I often say, people say, oh, you, you've, because of what, you've done. You're a bit of an amateur psychologist, And I say, oh, hang a sec. I'm not an amateur, I am a psychologist. Yeah. Because I've had to deal, the goal could been not, doesn't take care of itself, but there are only a certain number of attributes to it. And you've gotta be all very, we're talking about very good at all those attributes. But dealing with, like anything else, dealing with people in a high high level, stressful situation is something that. If I look back now, I'm probably as proud of that as watching the lads. Now, if Jordan makes this, it's a funny, they keep showing the clip. It's really funny. The ball comes into and he catches it and he falls to the floor and he holds it in what I would call a classic Simon Smith goalkeeper position. And, he's doing it to waste time. Yeah. But I, look at it and I think, is he taking the mick outta me there? Yeah. Because I went on and on about it, that there's a message. He's that good. He can do it right. He can do it. And it's yeah. And I, haven't seen him for, a couple of years now and, I, I've kept in touch through other people. it's been a weird one. But I often think, I had a, a similar thing. We played Sheffield United. I don't know whether remember when we were in the championship, I think maybe. And John Joe Shelby scored from, he ran through from halfway and the, everybody thought it was offside. He went and he took it round dean Henderson, who was one of me goalies for England. Yeah. And, and scored. And, at the end of the game, I've waited for Dean to, so he's come over, he says, oh s he said, oh, he said, I should have done better with that goal, shouldn't I? And it's like I said, I'm Newcastle here. And he said, yeah. He said, I should have done a lot better. And he said, I, should have done this. And started talking through it. And it's like being a school teacher. You're always his teacher. Yeah. I'm with it, but I'm delighted you didn't.'cause like we've, I think we won one nil and I had, Jordan's was different because obviously he comes to play at St. James's Park, he's hated. I, let's, and so a couple of times he's dealt with it great. One time he didn't deal with it so well. But anyway, I've waited for him, at half time just to say hello. And as he's walked towards me, he said, I don't think you should be waiting for me, so the crowd will turn on you. And I'm thinking, I'm, I said to him, I'm just saying, he said, walk on. And it's tho those, like I said before, they, that's where it makes it real. That you've, they have respect for you. You have respect for them and it doesn't matter who you're playing for or where you're playing, it's that, yeah. Amazing. Their appreciation. I think. So

Paul: 53:58

penultimate question then, what's, if you could give any advice to young goalies who are up coming, who've got their eyes set on becoming a pro, what's, the game changer for them that they can focus on? That they can make a real impact on their career with.

Simon: 54:15

I think looking back, you have to have a mindset where you and you have to have the mindset where you realise that you're going to have to do the same kind of work all the way through your career. There is no quick fix. It was like I was saying to Leo before, he's eight now and if he's lucky enough and he has all the other attributes being tall and great mentality and all the rest of it, he's ngoing tonna reach his peak till what, 22? 23? Because there's a physicality about the whole thing. Yeah. But unfortunately he's going to do basic handling now for the next 25 years. And I think there's a mindset of that.

Paul: 54:55

Yeah.

Simon: 54:55

And if you're not that way inclined, if you're a bit like if it bores you, you can't pause you or, oh, I'm sick of this. Or. But as I say, I think you've got to have that. and it's not boring because obviously the thing about is that, you want to be the best and the most con, like I said to the guys today, the most consistent that you can be, because that's what it's all about when you get to that level. Yeah. People say to me that, so I might say, so I do today. And they'll say, oh, you did a practice today with the under tens. you obviously wouldn't do that with the pros. And it's no, I would, I said, but all I would do is I'd be serving it harder. Yeah. Or maybe a different angle or, and it, but that it's the same practice because what I'm trying to get out the gold is, it's the same for Leo as it is for Carl Darlow or Martin.

Paul: 55:45

Yeah.

Simon: 55:45

And so I, think it's a funny one isn't, it's like when you're profiling people, it's like saying them, are you prep, are you prepared to do the same kind of work because that's what you're going to get? For the rest of the, that's the payment, right? It is. That's the rest, the sweat tears. And, I, feel at the minute is what's, disappeared slightly, is that, that the, word repetition. Now the skill of the coach is, wrapping up that repetition. So you're still repeating it, but it's interesting. And it's challenging and it might be competitive. That, to me is the skill of the, goal, the skill of the goal coming coach or anything I often associate myself more to a golf coach or a tennis coach because it's a similar kind of thing. There's a set, skill list or technique list. Now it might be, golf, it might be the windy or it might be rain or the greens might be softer. And then there's all those things that go into it as there are with goalkeeper, many. But the, main principle principles of it don't actually change. Yeah. And I think it's, the, really successful ones that I've worked with buy it. Yeah. They can appreciate, probably buy into it better and realise why they need to do it. Yeah. To get to where they, they need to get to,

Paul: 57:08

And then last question that I have, we, we talked about childhood idols at the beginning, Bruce Grobelaar, Neville Southall, how do you think they'd fare in today's game with all the changes that have gone on and with the new focus on footwork and,

Simon: 57:24

like I said before, I think because they were a bit different that they would actually adapt to it really well, because they obviously have that mindset of thinking, oh, I could do this, or I, they were maybe looking for change or open to change. So I think, and like I said before, you know the talk about, oh, so andSo distribution clever, but there was people like Peter Schmeichal. Yeah, man, Edwin Van Der Sar, bBarthez the other side of it is obviously, like if you look at the way that Manuel Neuer, that the sweeper keeper thing, that's become like the norm as well. I got into a conversation last year with the fa about sweeper, they call it something different, like defending the space and all the rest of it. I said, oh, so he means sweeper keeper. I wrote a book in 2004 where I had a chapter on sweeper keeper. So there's bits of it that people are trying to tell you that it's changed, but it hasn't.

Paul: 58:15

Yeah.

Simon: 58:16

But nervous. But I do get the passing thing because as I say, it's not just the passing, it's the standard of the passing that people are now looking for.

Paul: 58:24

Yeah.

Simon: 58:25

that, that really has made that a little bit different. But as I say, when I go and I look in the academies now the, that has been accepted as the add-on bit to, yes, we need great technique of catching, diving, jumping, whatever, but we also need to be sure that you can receive it and pass it. And obviously even like today, some of the coaches, have, done a, what I would call a technical goal giving practice, and that added a bit of passing on at the end.

Paul: 58:55

Yeah.

Simon: 58:55

And that's how it's that branch, that role of it is branched out to making people think, yeah, I can't just stick to this. I need to, develop it as, like you say, as the role's develop, you need to develop your work. Amazing.

Paul: 59:11

thank you very much for your time today, Simon. It's been an absolute pleasure. hope you've enjoyed the conversation. Yeah, very much. And thank you at home for watching or listening along. I hope you give us a subscribe and a follow, and we'll see you on the next episode shortly. Thanks. Bye-bye.