Jonathan Craig on Graft, Pressure and the Gloves

Jonathan Craig’s story is about sacrifice, graft, and never waiting for luck to knock. In this episode of the Catching Up Podcast, Jonathan shares how he built his own opportunities through relentless hard work and a refusal to quit on his dream.

From coaching women’s football to travelling the world, Jonathan opens up about the ups and downs of a goalkeeping life. He talks about sacrifices that tested him, mentors who guided him, and the setbacks that could have ended his journey—if not for resilience and belief.

You’ll hear about the brutal realities of the game, the moments that nearly broke him, and the breakthroughs that made it all worth it. This isn’t just about gloves and saves—it’s about mindset, work ethic, and creating chances for yourself.

Whether you’re a young keeper, a coach, or simply someone who loves football stories told with honesty, Jonathan’s journey is packed with lessons that go far beyond the pitch.

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Transcript

0:05

Welcome back to episode two of this season of Catching Up with EVOGK. This week's guest is the phenomenal Jonathan Craig, who's the current first team goalkeeper coach for Sunderland Women's team. This episode we're gonna hear all about the sacrifices that Jonathan made to chase his Goalkeeping dream, how he learned to create his own chances through sheer hard work. The reality of pressure between the posts, and how he's handled it. Why setbacks shape his mindset more than the wins ever did. Lessons on resilience, working hard, grafting, staying committed when others gave up. And also young keepers are gonna learn from Jonathan's journey, how you can turn dedication into opportunities. Anybody who's ever been told no. Anybody who's worried about being told no. I can tell you Jonathan's been told no more times than you have, and he still got there because he gave everything and put himself into the right positions and created his own luck in his own opportunities to be showcased in order to get there. It's a phenomenal story. I hope you enjoy listening to it. This is catching up, and I'm Paul Banks.

Paul: 1:26

So welcome back for the second episode of EvoGK's Catching Up Podcast. I'm Paul Banks, and today I'm joined by Jonathan Craig. Jonathan, welcome to the show. Thank you very much, Paul, for having me on. Again. Again, technical setbacks. Technical setbacks. This is a second time we're recording, so hopefully just like good, good wine. It'll age with time. Jonathan, do you want to just talk us through your, your current role and, and what you do

Jonno: 1:54

so, I'm currently the first team goalkeeper coach for Sunderland women. been doing that for the past three years, come this October, and, I'm glad I'm just down to that one single role because I've done all roles at the football club from Women's 20 Ones and Boys Academy as well.

Paul: 2:15

So you've done a lot. Yeah, you've done a lot. first of all, congratulations to the, to the, women's team at the moment. Joint, joint top in their league is a phenomenal, thank you. There's plenty clean sheets So far.

Jonno: 2:29

One clean sheet, against Sheffield United, which which was really, really nice. And then, when we played Birmingham here, who we think are going to be the best team in the league, they're, fantastic team won one and then we beat Durham on Friday. Big Derby one. Big Derby. Big Derby, which is always nice to when, she, that six in a row, we've now beaten Durham. So yeah, that was, that was really, really nice. Disappointed that we conceded a goal, but that's just a Goalkeeping coach's prerogative.

Paul: 3:07

as, as we did with the, the first episode, I'm gonna rewind time back, to your youth. And first question I'm gonna ask is, who was your goalkeeping idol when you were growing up? Jonathan?

Jonno: 3:19

well, I'm a diehard Rangers fan. So my goalkeeping idol was Andy Goram,"the goalie as he was called"the goalie. God, rest his soul.

Paul: 3:29

He invented the position, right?

Jonno: 3:34

yeah, he what an unbelievable goalkeeper, but he's someday that if he, if you looked at him even in his prime, you, when he say he's a world-class goalkeeper, like he's an athlete, he's not what goalkeepers look like nowadays, that's for sure. But he was part of an era of unbelievable goalkeepers around the world.

Paul: 3:58

What was it particularly that separated him from the rest?

Jonno: 4:01

First and foremost, he wasn't the tallest. He was only 5'10", 5'11" And I'm not a big guy, not quite that size, but his, his unbelievable speed of reaction. he was just an unbelievable shot stopper, but as we class it, as now as he could defend the goal for fun. And he always loved playing against Celtic as well. He broke their hearts on many of occasion, which was really nice. but yeah, He is, it is just the way he defended the goal and he was brave and he was just unbelievable.

Paul: 4:44

So this was, this was you as a, as, as a young kid, obviously I, I would ask how you got involved in football, but growing, growing up anywhere near Glasgow, it's pretty clear. Same as if you grew up in Sunderland or Newcastle, right? Yeah. All around you when you grew up. When did you first decide to get into football yourself? Grassroots.

Jonno: 5:04

Yeah. So, you wouldn't believe this, but when, when I was born, I had zero hand to eye coordination. I would, I would, wave there and be looking there. so that in itself, how I've become, how I became a goalkeeper and how I've become a professional goalkeeper coach is crazy to think. Yeah. but it, it was just something that happened at a family barbecue and we were playing rounders and somebody just hit the ball and I just went like that and Got it. So yeah, I just, I caught this ball and everybody was like, oh, my, word Jonathan, where did that come from?" And then I started to watch about football. It was something I wasn't really into, Paul, to be completely honest. But then my dad started to explain to me about football and, and what drew me to Goalkeeping, most especially was the tops and the gloves. I was like, they look so different from the rest of the players. The nineties goalkeeper tops. Oh, tremendous, tremendous. Best era for goalie tops ever. And yeah, I was just like, oh, I quite fancy that. Not thinking or knowing exactly what a goalkeeper done, but seeing them just fly about and stopping the ball. I just thought, yeah, fancy a bit of that because I was wee bit crazy as a kid. And then I started to get into it, played with friends, and then I found out there was teams. And back in the early nineties there was a newspaper called the Pink newspaper, it was called, you got all the football scores on this newspaper from all the grassroots and teams used to advertise.

Paul: 6:50

So let's, let's, let's, just be clear for a lot of the audience that are watching along at home is we didn't have mobile phones, we, you were looking if you had a landline and you certainly didn't have the landline number for any clubs. Pink paper, it was for everyone. yeah. And you'd advertise, you could have like bikes and all sorts of stuff in there. like all your secondhand It was, it was, eBay, vintage jobs, market results, news and football all in the same place.

Jonno: 7:14

Yeah. Big time. And, and we obviously had Teletext but we, God now show our age and, but yeah, there was a team advertised, Tynecastle Boys Club, and my dad spoke to the manager, went along and, yeah, they, they took me on because I was just, it was a very, very good shot stopper.

Paul: 7:41

And you were the only one dashing off to stand behind the sticks, right? Yeah.

Jonno: 7:44

Yep. Most definitely. So yeah, to, to get involved with Tynecastle at the age of, 15 was, was brilliant. But up until then, it was

Paul: 7:53

just playing with my mates. So you'd never even kicked a ball professionally until you were semi-professional, grassroots, professionally, yeah. And toys until you were 15, 15. and do you play a lot in the streets as well though, right? Like that's, that's pretty much everything, isn't it?

Jonno: 8:06

Where I was living at the time, with my mam and dad, there was a wee Park and we called it the Top Park and it was like a triangle. And every night during the summer, we would be out there until it was, dark at 10 o'clock till your mam's shouting. Yeah, that is exactly it. And then even during the winter time, we would, we would just be out there all the time and yeah, I just took such a love to it. So did you get much further than grassroots football? What, what, what did Yeah. So because of the, the family that I've grown up with, with my mam and dad, we're a very, very hardworking family. Very Work driven and my dad constantly talked about, extra training. we found a club, Edinburgh City U18's. I was only 15, but they trained on a different night from Tynecastle. So I went along there, done some extra training, and a gentleman called Stuart Thomas. I'm not sure what his role was at the club. He wasn't a coach, but he, He was a'Gadgy', I wouldn't even say a Gadgy think he was part of the committee with something along those lines. But he got a job at East Sterling, which you could class as a cat 3 academy and liked me that much. He took me there with him. He was the only player that he actually signed, the rest of the East Sterling staff signed the rest of the players. So to take me along, I was, I was blown away by the opportunity and we got to play against other, cat two, cat one academies and yeah, it was an eyeopener, that's for sure. but just learning the game completely differently and and that's when I got my first Goalkeeping coach as well. And a gentleman called Bobby, and unfortunately Bobby passed away, a few years ago, but, he wasn't even a goalkeeper coach. He went on the SFA licenses and just learn and had, practice books and everything. And yeah, it was, I was loving that. And then that's when obviously I'm thinking to myself, oh, us as goalies have goalie coaches. We have our own personal coaches. Yeah. Yeah. And. But yeah, I spent about six months at East Sterling and unfortunately, my, my big mouth got me in trouble because, I was opinionated as, as a, as a, young kid. And, basically I called the first in goalkeeper coach a clown said, you don't dunno that, do it. Talking about Yeah, that would do it. Yeah.

Paul: 11:03

Yeah. it might be a clown, but it's a clown in charge.

Jonno: 11:08

Yeah. this is the thing. yeah. But then I, I was fortunate enough with my mam and dad, they just kept on pushing me and they, they put letters out to all academies around Scotland and Doug Feland came back and said, yeah, we'll take you in on trial. And I was there for about six months and, just wasn't to be the basically too small. Too small. And but never stopped me from thinking, I want a

Paul: 11:48

career in football. And that's, I think, having, having heard your story, previously, that that's what stands out for me is throughout the time you were constantly up against, people saying no, or, or pushing back on you, and you found a way every single time to prove them wrong, to, to grasp opportunities, to create opportunities to get yourself in front of people, right? yeah. Even just taking on extra training. Like it's that, it's that hardworking mentality, right?

Jonno: 12:15

Yep. Yeah. And that's that I, if there's any piece of advice that I could give to any kid, boy or girl, as a goalkeeper or football player, never, ever stop working hard. Like talent could get you far but hard work and really push you to the, the really, really top level. Yeah. so that's definitely one piece of advice that I would give any football player and anybody in life. No honesty.

Paul: 12:45

it's true. And, and that's why there's so many business analogies drawn in line with team sports and football particularly, is what's, what's true in football is, is really just the life skills for everything else that you, you learn. It's why I, it's why I love watching my son play football, whether, whether career goes further or not, it's the skills that he's learning, the disappointments, the setbacks, how you deal with the setbacks. but it's definitely, it's, it's a fantastic, it's a fantastic story. But so you, you've been kind of, you've gone as far as you can as a, as a keeper itself, like what's in your head at this point?

Jonno: 13:20

I wasn't at the cleverest at school, unfortunately, and like I thought to myself, what do I want outta my life? And my mam and dad obviously pushed me towards, towards that as well. And what do you want outta. My mam and dad ran their own business. They had their own charcoal business. And soon as I left high school, I went straight into that. And in all honesty, I Hated it Hated it. it, it was just a way of life that I wouldn't, I wouldn't want to do for the rest of my life. So I just thought to myself, how much can I really push on my coaching and just put in all the beliefs and the hard work that my mam and dad have installed in me? How far can I push, in all honesty. And there's a bit of luck that's needed along the way. You need to meet the right people. There's a, there is a famous scene in football. It's not what you know, it's who you know. What you know will get you in the door, but you need to know people. And, I just put myself, put myself out there and when I was still working in. Or not even working. When I was coaching in grassroots, my mam and dad opened up a door with, my first ever mentor, a gentleman called Billy Thompson, and unfortunately, he passed away a few years ago, and that, that was devastating to me because he was my first mentor and he was the head of goalkeeper at Kilmarnock. And I went for a couple weeks and I asked him, listen, is all right if I come back for the remainder of the season? And once again, I, that was me just pushing myself forward. If I got a yes, then brilliant. If I got a no, then no, problem. But I would find a way to keep on pushing myself. Fortunately enough, I got a yes and he just, he taught me the ropes and one of the first things that he turned around and said to me or asked me was Right, Jonathan. What do you think is the most important factor of being a goalkeeper coach? And I'm thinking to myself, not think, not using the term knowledges that I use nowadays, but I'm like, content has to be high up there. Your identification of the, the specific actions that the goalkeepers are making and, and just every piecing everything together. Oh, he thought he needed to hear. Yeah. Yeah. And he said, and he turned around and he actually leaned forward and looked at me and he, he says, can you kick a ball? And my eyes started to roll about and I went, yeah, I think so. And he's as a goalkeeper coach, that is the first thing that you need because you work in such a small group, so you have to have the ability to serve. And I was like. I won't use the language that I used in my own head at that point, but I was like, that obviously makes sense. And Billy could strike the ball right foot, left foot off the deck, volleys, half volleys, sign, winder, skimmers, dippers crosses. He could do everything left and right footed. And I'm just like, oh my word. So then e everything starts to piece together again. So once again, the hard work mentality comes in. And I, and that was the first day, that Billy asked me that. So I went home to my dad. I'm like, dad, you won't believe this. He's what is that And I told him what he said, and where my parents live now, where I live for 20 odd years of my life, big, massive field out the back. And he says, me And you are out in that field every night and, and you're striking the ball And, Once again, some nights, I'm not going to use the language that I use with my dad here. but he, he just kept on saying again, again, and I just caused him, had to strike a football. Yep. Yeah. Again, and now unfortunately enough that my, my left foot is, I'm proud of my left foot. But it's just, you think that, right? You're going into coaching and you're learning all these different things about goalkeeper coaching and about goalkeeping. But as a goalkeeper coach, what is the basis and the basics that You need You need to be able to serve a ball.

Paul: 18:08

Yeah.

Jonno: 18:08

So once again, for all the kids that will watch this, when you come to the Camp EvoGK, and you miss a target, and I'm shouting at you saying Target, that is why Work the keeper. Work the keeper. Yep. Because you're working on your own distribution at the same time.

Paul: 18:25

Yeah. yeah, it's, it's, it's interesting though because I'll bet there's a lot of people out there who put a lot of thought into, if I'm, if I'm gonna be a footballer, I need? to be able to, it's not just about being able to save the goals I tell, I drill it into my son, you've gotta do the, the passes You've gotta be passing across the floor. You've gotta be able to receive the ball. You've gotta be able to stop the ball. And, he's, he's only seven, but I, I feel him rolling his eyes every time I say it come up, we're gonna do passing. I was like, oh, dad, I do the exciting stuff. Yeah. But but how many people actually sit there and think about the time served coaches that are out there, the goalkeeper coaches that are out there, and you're right. it's, every, every role has its basics. And if you're prepared to, do the hard work and push yourself through that, then, as you said before, it's, there's a certain amount of talent in there. But actually it's also about that 10,000 attempts make perfect, right? And, and a 100,000 make you even better. So why, why stop once you gotta keep going. Yeah. but then you, there's, there's a, there's a journey for you to get to your first team goalkeeper coach, which you eventually got to, right?

Jonno: 19:34

yeah. So, I was working, so I was fortunate enough to get into Hearts Academy through a gentleman, called Willie Aicherson and I thank Willie for, really starting me on my journey in professional football. And he got the job at East Fife and to, a, a Scottish League one club at the time. And it was, as a Rangers fan, this was a hard time for me as a Rangers fan because it's when we got demoted all the way down to the third division in Scotland, but they obviously got promoted into League One, and that was the season when I was at East Fife. To go Ibrox. I was absolutely buzzing. Oh, I would proper buzzing. I had my dad and this come on, glee sheets. We were 1-0 down after 30 seconds, there's a picture of me sat like that with a stern face. I'm like, on sick. but yeah, he, because we were going full time and the owner at the time just chucked money at it with no thought process about what it was gonna look like. Back when you could. Yeah. Yeah. But back when it was about how Rich is your owner. yeah, yeah, he brought me in and I think I was only 28, 29 years old. And I'm now at Hearts Academy. I'm doing hearts. I'm, I'm working with international football players at hearts and working with top level. Kids as well to then get that opportunity and to go in and work with, a goalkeeper called Mikey Andrews. and Mikey was a Scotland, U21 goalkeeper and brilliant pedigree and worked with two other goalies as well. And it was just, it was an eye-opener to see how it was, how it was all going to work, and how we all got pieced together. Uh, unfortunately the time there got cut short, fortunately. he lost his job and his entire staff went with him. And that's football. Yep. That's football. You're just like, it happens. but then. Then what's next? Because I was still at Hearts. I was still working at Hearts, which, which was fine. but having other things on, on top of that, it was just, it was a time that, I've came outta first team football and back into Academy football full, full-time. And it was, it was a point in my career that I thought, how can I push again? What's next? What's next, what's next? for Jonathan Craig? and I just kept on pushing and kept on pushing at heart, attend my first Goalkeeping senior license when I was there. And, it made me feel qualified at that point. And I'm like, Push again. Never stand still. And it was, yeah. There was a point

Paul: 23:09

where you volunteered right to, to go warm keepers up to get noticed, right?

Jonno: 23:13

Yeah. When I first went into Hearts, I went from one day a week or one night a week to two nights a week to then two nights plus a game on a Sunday. And then, and then I pushed myself forward again to try and come in full time. However, I got told I was in for two weeks and, I got given all the kit, I was buzzing. My mam was buzzing because my mam's side of the family are all hearts fans, so it made them very proud. Yeah. but then I got pulled aside by the academy manager John Murray saying, Unfortunately, circumstances at the top have changed. we can't take you on because Stevie Banks is dropping down, to U19's in academy. and that was, that was the year of mad Vlad Romanoff crazy. And he. But Willie, turned round and said to me, I'll be in touch in two weeks. And it was two weeks to that day. That, yeah, he called me and then it got me in, and then everything started to really, really, build and asked John if I could come in, to shadow Banksy with the U19's. And they got back in from mam and dad saying, we'll back you financially, we'll take care of everything and whatnot. And, once again, amazing parents. Just to back me as much as, as much as they have. And, but then yeah, as I say, things just started to build. And unfortunately for banks, he, he hurt his knee and he couldn't take training anymore, so I ended, ended up taking on the U19s. Yeah. Yeah. Straight in. I ended up taking the u19s. Full time reserves. Mm. And as you say, all volunteered not paid, in their seven days a week. And between doing u19s, reserves, academy, it was literally seven days. Yeah. Because I was going from under u19s on a Friday to go watching U9s and U10s on a Saturday and then U15s to U17s or U14s and U13s, U12s on a Sunday. It's a busy life. It's a great life though. Great life. I wouldn't have never changed it. Yeah. yeah. But people have just got to realise to make your name, especially in this game, you've got the sacrifice. Yeah. Got the sacrifice a lot and personally and everything, when all my friends were going out and having good time and drinking and meeting, their girlfriends and their partners and whatnot. I wa I was in the house. I was in the house. You come now, John. No, no. I've gotta again tomorrow. I'm, and that's the sacrifice that you make.

Paul: 26:12

Yeah. and then you started the road to real Kashmere, right?

Jonno: 26:17

Yeah. between all of that, God, God, Hibs Left, left Hearts,, went to Hibs. That went down like a lead balloon. Spent three years there, working with their academy. But in between all of that as well. I went to be Rangers was first team goalkeeper coach there. That was, was again, amazing. Loved that, loved my time there, successful. and, and then I was full time at the SFA Scotch Football Association doing performance high school. And all of that married together,

Paul: 26:55

What's Performance High school for, for the kids that haven't been through there.

Jonno: 26:58

So it's basically kids who play for academies. Yeah. And the trial to come to the, their, their specific, performance high school in certain areas. I think there's seven or eight in Scotland. Edburg Glasgow, five, Dundee. And these are boys and girls who, we all feel that can make professional careers and national careers, in the game. So yeah, I was in charge of, all the goalkeepers.

Paul: 27:37

And it was about this time that you met James as well, right?

Jonno: 27:40

Yeah, I met James just before I went out to India. He, he ran a conference with my friend, Ross was present going on, and he says, you want to come through? And it was, that's Slaley Hall, and that's when I first met James and. Then we just stayed in touch on Facebook and then swapped numbers and everything. and he, I had left Hibs and went to Barnsley. had a wonderful opportunity to go to Barnsley as Lead Academy Goalkeeping coach, which I was never going to turn down because I was doing Hibs, Berwick Rangers, SFA. So I was jumping all over the place, Paul. And it was hard. Yeah. It was something a bit more permanent. Yeah. I was never gonna turn down that opportunity. And then when James came, gave me a call, he said, can I come out and watch you? And I'm gonna bring Lee Barris, who was one of the directors for, EVO at the time. So I said, yeah, no problem. So he came out and watched me take a one-on-one session, and I was like, I'm really sorry guys. I've only got one goalkeeper the day. And they're like, no, no, no, that's fine, that's fine. And that's when it all started. He watched me. Contacted me. No pressure. No pressure. No none. None whatsoever. And, He then contacted me and said, listen, I want you involved in the camp once again at Slaley Hall. And Tony Parks was the headliner for it. And I was a wee bit, God, this is rather daunting. like, he was, this is real. Yeah. He was head of goalkeeper at Tottenham. Yeah. God. Working with Hugo Lloris. World Cup winner. And he, I thought, am I gonna be up to the level here? I always backed myself, but I thought, am I gonna be up to the level here working with guys like him? And I'd said to James, listen, I'm flying out to India, a week's time. And he's no, that's fine. that's fine. We'll just see how. he get on and whatnot and parks. He gave me a loan review, so I was buzzing. I was proper buzzing. Yeah. And seven years later, right? What was that, sorry? Being

Paul: 30:06

validated by one of the legends,

Jonno: 30:08

right? Oh God. Yeah. Yeah. And I was just like, wow. So now we're talking seven years later. Yeah. Part of that and looking at the way that has grown, I mean, dear me, it's just been unbelievable. And working with your Tony Parks at that point. Yeah. Eric Steeles, your Jack Robertsons, Chris Williams, Wilco, God, Dave Watson, who we had here previously. the list goes on. It does. It really does. Yeah. The list goes on and that's testament to James and what he's produced and, and the level of coaches that he's brought in and even the support staff. Um, unbelievable

Paul: 30:49

So in the meantime, you are heading out to India. Why? like how do you, how do you become a goalkeeper coach who's heading out to India? Because that's, that's not something I would've heard anybody considering.

Jonno: 30:59

So my time at Barnsley was coming to an end. and this is how fickle football was. Sometimes it, I got told after producer two England Goalkeepers and, one of them who just recently left, Manchester United, yeah, I got told that I've not done enough and my contract isn't going to be getting renewed. So I was, I was in trouble. I was in in trouble. I was, was devastated and I just thought, what's next? But my friend Ross, he spoke to me about two or three weeks prior and he said, you might hear from Jimmy Lindsay. And I thought nothing else solved that. And Jimmy was a guy that I worked with at Hearts. And, I tell you a funny story, Paul, after I got told this, I had to sort out a few things and I missed a couple days of work and whatnot. And, but then I went back in and I saw the club pastor, at Barnsley and I got on really, really well with him. And he says, oh, Jonathan, I've not seen you in a couple days. And I explained why? And he says, it's alright if I say I pray for you. And I said to him, Peter, I'm not, I'm not a Catholic. I'm I'm, a Christian. I'm, and he like, no, it's absolutely fine. So we went into the prayer room and the first thing that he said to God, he says, please open lots of doors for this fantastic young man that night. Jimmy called me. Jimmy called me, and I was just like, oh my God, this is just crazy. It's crazy how this has happened. And the manager for real Kashmir is a gentleman called David Robertson, who is a ranger's legend. And Jimmy said, ah, it's David Robertson, who's the manager. I'm like, ex left back? Ranger's, Left back, David Robertson? He's yeah, that's a gaffer. I was like, oh, wow. And I asked him about the role and he says, yeah, it's first team goalkeeper coach. And so I traveled back to Scotland to have a conversation with David, and Jimmy. And one of the first things that David turned in and said to me, he says, have you seen a documentary? I'm like, documentary? And he's yeah. And would make it a second part as well when we go back out there, so if you if you decide to come, you'll be in it. And I'm like, no. And he says, I recommend you watching this documentary. So had a conversation. There was no money discussed right away. And then I'm headed back to the train station in Dundee. And Jimmy called me and says, what do you think? And I'm like, listen, it, it all sounds really, really good. Sounds great. And also, when I was going to the venue, when I was meeting them, I got confirmation that I'd just passed my UEFA goalkeeping license. So I was think to myself, just add a few zero's on the end of, yeah, I'm on my contract.

Paul: 34:14

I, but this is your prime, right? Like you've, you've produced England goalkeepers at this point in time. this is, why not?

Jonno: 34:21

Yeah. Yeah. Something different. New culture. Could I be successful? Because touch wood, everywhere where I went, I've, I have produced and yeah. It's not arrogance. I've just got, I've got the records to prove it. Yeah. Because I just believe in myself, but I've always stayed humble. I'll never ever forget where I've came from. Yeah, And the people who've helped me get to where Yeah, I am. So that's another life lesson. Always be humble. but yeah. but when Jimmy came back with the offer, I was like, Nope. No chance. I'm not coming out to India for that. Absolutely no chance. And there was a bit of toing and froing and they eventually came back with an offer, that obviously accepted. And I spoke to a few professional friends as well, and they said, you imagine how good that's gonna look on a CV, that you're going completely outside your comfort zone. You're going out there. And, but what I didn't know at the time was about real Kashmir is it's the most militarised zone on the planet. It's right in between India and Pakistan. There's killings. There's bombings, there's no wifi, there's no phone service. Good job you put those zeroes on the end, right? Oh yeah. And don't get me wrong, the most stunning part of India that you'll see, and it's only part of India that snows because it's right next to the Himalayas. So you could imagine the scenery. Yeah. Yeah. Every day. But you're, you're looking at the poverty and we've had games canceled. We couldn't come back to Kashmir right away because of all the violence that was going on. And then when we eventually went back after the longest preseason in history, about four months, preseason should be a maximum of two, if that. Yeah. We got back and we weren't allowed to train our. At our stadium, we had to be in isolation behind basically closed doors. So we went to a local high school. We had to start training at, half past six in the morning, and We had to be back at the club hotel by half past eight. Yep. So we're now going back to a hotel without any wifi. Without any internet for the entire day. For the entire day. And you're just, when you talk about mental strength Yeah. Like you could deal with, if you could deal with that, you could deal with anything and Yeah. You've got like armed guards taking you to stadiums and stuff, right? Yeah. I have my own body guard. it was, it was quite funny when I came back after my first season out there, I'd done a podcast and one of the presenters asked me, what's the difference between cashmere? And where you live in Scotland. And I, and I said to him, so where I live in Scotland, in in Dalkeith, we just go to the local shop, we buy our groceries, we go up to the cashier, we pay'em money. And they're like, they said, don't like that and cash me. I'm like, oh, it was we local shop just down the road, the only one called the Kashmere Mart. And yeah, you go pick up, your groceries or get whatever you wanted to get your box of pop and your Chris and and whatnot, and you start at the cashier and somebody walks in with an AK 47 strapped around their shoulders. Nobody bats an eye. And that was, that was a way of life that I had to understand. So when I watched a documentary and thinking, bloody hell, am I seriously considering going out to this place? And just mentally prepare myself for this is what I'll look like, and you have to be ready for it because you've made this choice. You made this choice in your life. And to be fair, I would never have changed that. again for the world.

Paul: 38:39

It sounds like a, an experience of, of kind of culture and just being outside of what any of us would consider normal. And, and I, I, but I bet that that has its own benefits as well in terms of a reset for yourself and, and obviously COVID happened while you were out there as well, right?

Jonno: 38:56

Yeah, it made me a better man. It made me like I've all, I appreciate everybody in my family, I appreciate all my friends, but I didn't quite appreciate life as much until I went out there and I just saw, as I said, the poverty, how people lived. I'll never forget what I decided. What I wanted to do was I would get tons of old goalie gloves and just pictures, pieces of paper or whatnot, and I would get my goalies to sign them. And before every single home game, I would pick out a kid in the stand and I would give them the gloves or the piece of paper with the signatures Yeah. On it. And I just thought, that's just going to be, give a wee bit back to these people. And I'm a passionate man, yeah. I'm, I'm crazy. Like when it comes to football, and they would see that passion in me. I celebrate every goal like I've scored it myself and Or every save. Or every save. Yeah. Yeah, well and truly. And it was just to bring a bit of happiness to these kids' lives. Yeah. As well.

Paul: 40:13

And, but you've gotta think about the future as well, right? Like you want your next goalkeeper to turn up at some point, and if, if no kids are, all they're bothered about is watching the football, not, not actually taking part in it. Yeah. Then what, what have you

Jonno: 40:25

got? A hundred percent. yeah, it, it made me a better human being and I already was and Yeah. as you, as you mentioned, COVID. Wow. 47 days. Paul. 47 days. Myself, David and David's wife had flew out a week earlier, so that went doing like a lead balloon when we were stuck there. so she was stuck out there. Assistant manager, Jimmy, we had six foreign players, six or seven foreign players, and two of them were, British, Callum Higginbottom, and Mason Robertson, who was David's son. And we had the African guys out there as well, and we were stuck 47 days. It was that was just one of the toughest times of my entire life because I'm thousands and thousands of miles away from my mam and dad, but I don't know why we can't get back. And with David being that so much of a celebrity and people knowing who he is, he'd done interviews. he'd done so much. It was in the newspapers and just trying to get us back.

Paul: 41:46

Yeah.

Jonno: 41:47

And when we did, we had to drive in a week in a wee van, full of our kit and took about 14 hours to get to a place called Jammu. But part of the journey was on a road where it was just a mountain on site. no barriers on this side. I swear to God, James

Paul: 42:08

Bond, right? Oh, yeah.

Jonno: 42:10

I swear to God, my head was like this for the entire journey, and every time I looked up, I got squeamish and I felt like I was gonna be sick because of you've just got that on the side. If any rocks came down, I wouldn't be sat here, right there.

Paul: 42:27

but this is a lad who grew up a stone's throw from the Highlands, And, and this is, this is real. Yeah. These are real mountains.

Jonno: 42:33

Yeah. But, so I was just like, oh my God, this is crazy. But, yeah, we got home, but I had agreed a new contract to to go back out, so, yeah. But wow. Unbelievable experience. And a very successful and rewarding one for me personally as well though, because Phurba Lachenpa, my goalkeeper, who the manager and Mason identified and signed, He had an unbelievable season. got an I league team of the season, got an overall team of the season between I league and ISL, and, and, he won overall Indian player of the year.

Paul: 43:20

Not just goalkeeper. Not just goalkeeper

Jonno: 43:23

player. And I was just like, oh my God, this is crazy, crazy. And I still speak to him to this day and he, he was just an unbelievable goalkeeper that could, could kick the legs of himself, was brilliant in the air coming for crosses. But he was an unbelievable shots stopper. He could defend the golfer fun. And I was like, oh my God, this kid is, he's got something. And he then went on to, now at Mumbai, being at Mumbai for a number of years now, being part of the national team as well. And yeah, it's always. We're so proud to help him in, in his journey to get there. It's,

Paul: 44:05

it's interesting because obviously there's, we, we have one of the, we have the best league in the world, in the Premier League right here in England. And we, I think for a lot of people, we just assume that all the best goalkeepers are, they're either here or they're at the big clubs that we already know, right? Like they're at Barcelona and they're at Real Madrid or, and yet his, his living proof that like out there where English people would never even think to look for the, the star players. There are incredible players out there who are quite happy where they are. Don't feel the need to come to the Premier League probably don't get the opportunity to come either, but it's just, it blows my mind now. It is just, I wonder how many amazing players are out there in, in different countries around the world that we'll never even hear about that could blow the socks off some of the players that we know and love. Yeah. Amazing. It's,

Jonno: 44:54

it's unbelievable.

Paul: 44:55

And then top all that off. You did eventually make it home. You, you spent how many seasons? Three seasons out there. Three

Jonno: 45:00

seasons out there. And the, the other two seasons were really successful. We won, the IFS shield back to back, first time that the club had ever won the eye face shield, obviously first time round. My goalkeeper saved a penalty in the final as well, so you could hear me from the heavens. I was delighted big and, yeah, we went on and had the successful season in the second season and finished mid table. It was good for us, because we didn't have the biggest budget in the world comparing to other teams. And it was a test as well, because we were under a bio bubble because of COVID. So everything was a go gutter. I was actually taking goalkeepers for sessions in a hotel lobby at times because we were only at ever allowed out outside for, For training in games. But when two of my goalkeepers obviously weren't playing Match Day plus one, what were we doing? We couldn't do anything. So I was taking goalie sessions in, in a hotel lobby. I don't think I would be able to do that here in the Hilton.

Paul: 46:10

No, no. I wouldn't have thought, I don't think people would be too happy about it to be fair.

Jonno: 46:14

But, but that's what was needed. You just gotta do what you just had to do what, what was needed. And then we tried to make a big push for it in the third season, signed some really, really top quality players. Retained IFA Shield again, scored equalizer in Stoppage time. I was way down the touch line. Sounds familiar for a Sunderland fan fan all sounds familiar. Yeah, I was way down the TUR touch. It was mental. And then we won at two, one. Brilliant. And we started league season really, really well. But then it was a COVID outbreak in all the hotels. league got suspended. We didn't do the proper thing and take everybody back to Kashmir. the owner, God bless soul, let people, let players go back to their home hometowns. some players didn't return because they couldn't deal with the isolation. And unfortunately we went down to the last game of the season, trying to stave off relegation. And me and David both said after that was done, we were just like, no, We're done. We're done. That's it. and yeah, we eventually, I eventually got home and I was just, thank God for that. So yeah.

Paul: 47:34

Got home. It's, I bet it makes you appreciate the small things though, right? A hundred percent. A hundred percent. It's an experience.

Jonno: 47:42

Yeah. And I made some wonderful friends out there. David especially. He does so much for me and we still keep in contact. And, yeah, it was just, it was a wonderful time. I wouldn't have changed it. Except for COVID of course. But, yeah, from a football and a lifestyle and just a life experience point of view, I would never change it.

Paul: 48:10

And then how did you get from there to working with Sun And Women's team then?

Jonno: 48:15

So I had, I got a message when I was still out in India, from a gentleman, Donnie Forbes, who had, done some work with, with, the Scotland under sixteens girls. And, I know that he was working at hubs and he contacted me when I was out there and said, Jonno, I'm on to reach out just to see how you are and watch your. What's your plans for the future? And he didn't know that I was actually out in India at this point, and he said, can we get catch up? And I said, yeah, no problem. However, I'm still out in India and I've just got back from a game. And he's oh God, I'm, I'm really sorry. I'm like, no, no problem. So he said, can I give you a call tomorrow? And I'm like, yeah, not a problem. So he gave me a call the next again day and he said, I've been asked to find a UEFA license to goalkeeper coach for a new position at Hibs as head of Academy Goalkeeper. Would you be? Yes. I didn't even let him finish the sentence. I just said, yes, it was head of Academy goalkeeper because I love my time at hubs and to go back I get full time. That that would've been so good. For me because their training ground is 50 minutes from my house. It would've just been ideal. But then necessary things happen once again, football. Necessary things happen. And I was like, nah, listen, I've been a professional coach for this long, I'm UEFA A license holder. And he said to me, he says, can you meet the new head of academy? I says, yeah, no problem. and it was a gentleman, Steve Keen, who, Blackburn Rover fans, known the name. he was manager there. He was well respected. He was, and I thought, yeah. I'll go and speak to him and I put on a PowerPoint and whatnot and he said, apply for the job and if I can't get any more money out the money, man, we won't bother putting you through for that review process. Won't waste your time. So anyway, applied for the job, came back interview and I'm thinking, oh something must have happened. Yeah. Nothing had happened. Yes. So I was, just like, okay, we're going to have to discuss something, going forward if I'm successful. So I got a phone call from him two weeks later and I'm thinking to myself, ah, he's going to be offering me the job here. and he says, John, unfortunately the job spec has changed. And I'm like, okay. And he said, we're now looking for a girls academy head of academy. Or an academy manager along with, boys Academy Goalkeeping coach. And I'm like, how on earth can you amalgamate the two? But then I put two and two together. So Donnie was friends with, gentleman called Scott Ross because they both came from Inverness and Scott was a goalkeeper coach, And he he'd done like Inverness foundation or something for the girls or the women. It was something like that. So he ticked the boxes and so he ended up getting that job and I was just like, Okay. It's like a really

Paul: 52:02

unique skill set that you, you're not gonna compete with that, right? No. Or want to? Probably,

Jonno: 52:07

no, definitely not. So Steve said to me, but the women's manager wants to speak to you. And I'm like, Okay. And Dean, I knew, I knew Dean, knew him to speak to and just say hello and so forth. and he had been contacting me quite a lot and I was putting two and two together here. So when I spoke Tommy, he says, do you want to come in? I'm not sure your, your views on women's football, but I've got an opportunity here that can bring you. in as first team goalkeeper, coach and assistant manager. And I said, yeah, okay. Go and do it. Money wasn't a great, but it was just something to say, right? I'm now away from India. So went and done that and then I get a phone call again. a phone call. And it was James. It was James. He said to me, he said, I know you're really, really enjoying that. I have. And I was, I was working with, brilliant people, brilliant bunch of goalkeepers as well. so I was certainly enjoying it. And he said, he said There's a job coming up at Sunderland, what do you think? And I went, what's the job? And he says, first team goalkeeper, coach for the women. And I was like, okay. Okay. So I went downstairs, spoke to mam and dad.'cause I had to move back in with it. That's another long story because I didn't get paid for six months in my last season out in India. So yeah, I had no money. but once again, support mechanism from my mam and dad. Unbelievable. And they said, you've got to jump at that. you've got the jump at that. It's going to be more money than what you're on at Hibs A hundred percent. And it's Sunderland. Unbelievable size football club. And I said, and I said, yeah, okay. So I applied for the job, obviously, and got the email back to say that I got through to the first interview, first interview stage, which was a PowerPoint. and had to analyse the goalkeepers who were here at the time, Claudia and Allison, and then present to, to Mel, who, Mel's one of the best coaches that I've ever worked with. she, she's unbelievable. but you can, I, I feel I could read people, I could not get a read on her at Tall Absolute Poker face. It's

Paul: 55:07

nothing worse. Yeah, no, it's nothing worse.

Jonno: 55:10

and I said that to her after I got the job. I was like, Mel, I think yeah, I was trying to read you back and you get anything out, you, and went through that process. And when I got home my dad said to me, how'd you think it went? And I'm like, yeah, I think I went into really good detail. I showed my knowledge, showed my experience, and then there was a second part to that of you. And I'm like, oh my what? So I had to come back and do a practical session with, three goalies, Claudia Allison and Ellie Jardine, who is gonna be joining U23s team. And, but I had a game for Hibs that same night as well. So I've had to come here. yeah. Had to come here a fair drive, deliver a session, half an hour. It felt like me being back on my Goalkeeping license because, it's so structured. you only had 30 minutes to deliver a session in your assessment. That's what felt like I had Mel stood there, Alex came in the head of Academy Goalkeeper and prod came in and he's a legend, like he's produced Jordan Pickford. And a Patterson, like he's, he's made this football club millions. So he stood there and a gentleman called Sam Guthrie, who I had at Barnsley on trial. So he was there watching as well, and I was just like, I was constantly like, that and I was concentrating on everything I was doing, and I was just like, oh my God, this is. This is intense

Paul: 56:55

all the time. They were just checking to see if you could kick with your left foot.

Jonno: 56:58

Yeah, probably. Yeah. Yeah. More than likely. I, but then I finished up and they were like, what do you think? And I'm like, yeah. and I spoke about the goalies and, and whatnot and then went, then I don't drive. So I took, I got the train here and Iain(Longstaff) picked me up from the train station to drop me off both times. So that's how good of a friend he is. what a guy. But then I went back to the train station, train straight in Edinburgh and I had to say to mam and dad, can you come and pick up this? No. That was after the first interview. I needed them to pick up my suit and everything and gimme my kit. And, but yeah, I had to get changed in the Academy and my Hibs track suit, and then go to the game and. All in this time thinking I'm watching the game, but I'm thinking, but I'm a professional, so I had to concentrate on the game. Yeah. But as soon as I finished, I got home and my dad was like, how do you think you're done? And like dad, depending on who, who else they're interviewing, I'll back myself against anybody, content wise, service wise, enthusiasm wise in the way that I deliver my content. so yeah, I think I'm in with a chance here. So I was sat in the house and this is a week later, I think it was on a Wednesday, and Alex had said, after the practical interview, he said, I'll be in touch next week. just to give you obviously our thoughts and. What we're going to do going forward. I'm like, okay. So mobile phone went withheld number, and I'm like, here. we go. So I went through to our music room in the house and dad has stood in the kitchen and I went, hello? and it's, hi Jonathan, it's Alex Clark here from Sunderland. How you doing? And I'm like, yeah, I'm good, Alex. I don't think myself, no. Here we go. Here we go. And he says, you know why I am obviously calling. And I'm like, yeah, yeah. And he says, first and foremost, thank you very much for applying and coming in and viewing. and he said, listen, it's, myself and Mel thought you came across really, really well. You presented really well. Your detail was really good, and your enthusiasm during the session was was good. And, we could see your experience coming through. And I was just waiting on the, but. You are always waiting on that. But yeah. And obviously the but never came. And he says, we won't offer you the job and this is how much it's going to be. And Paul, I kid you not, I lost my voice for the first time in my life. I was like, I just need to speak to my family. Is that all right? Can I give you a call back? And he's, and he started to kill himself, laughing, Alex. And he says, yeah, no problem. You've got my email address. Drop me an email and I'll call you straight back. And I've walked through and I'm thinking to myself, I've walked through, my dad stood against the unit and he looked at me And I'm like, I got the job. What am I going to do? And he's what do you think you going to do? You're gonna take the job. But then I had to leave to go to Hibs for training. And I was like, oh wow. Like you're going from that back on head. Yeah. You're going from that to then having to then go and give the bad news to your current employer. But I emailed Alex back and he called me straight back and I said, yeah, I would be absolutely delighted to accept the job. Thank you very much. He asked me notice period and everything at Hibs that I had. And I only been at Hibs just under three months, so I only had a week's notice period. So it didn't go down too well at Hibs unfortunately. And unfortunately though, that's football. That's football. And I worked my week's notice. That works both ways, right? Yeah. Yeah. So I worked my week's notice and then yeah, came here and just unbelievable.

Paul: 1:01:37

And you've had, some phenomenal success in the meantime whilst you've been there, right? As well, I should say. I should say, to be fair, your keepers have had some phenomenal success.

Jonno: 1:01:47

Yeah. So when I came, I didn't realise that the players during my first season, the players were only part-time. We were only training three nights a week, but the staff were full-time and we were just building a whole new staff. Like only myself and Mel were full-time. Steph's the assistant manager, she, she was a school teacher. She joined just before Christmas, I think it was full-time, but she had been male's assistant for a number of years. We were bringing in a new s and c coach, Jack, a new analyst Adam. Both are now no longer at the club, new physio. We were just building a whole new coaching structure. And to do what we'd done and go against all these heavy hitting teams as a part-time team, and stay in the league, was testament to, to the players. But I feel a lot of, to a lot of, praise to me and staff and myself coming in halfway through the season. And I was told my one job was, you need to produce a a first choice goalkeeper because they were, they were, topping a change a bit between Claudia and Allison. And I said right away I said, listen, Claudia is the strongest outta the two and this is why, and this is what I intend to do with her to go and get her to an even higher level. And yeah, so we finished the season, we stayed in the league. Which we saw as obviously a positive in itself, but then we went hybrid full-time and Claudia was one full-time goalkeeper and yeah, what an unbelievable season she had to be fair to her. she, she listened. She was, she implemented everything that I wanted her to do regarding how she defended the goal because she was a fantastic, she has a fantastic shots stopper. And yeah, she, went and won a few awards. we pushed for the league. We got down to, the second last game of the season. But what we had as well was a brilliant defensive structure in front of her as well, which a lot of work from Mel and Steph and myself were, were done to go and create that and. she won the golden glove outright tenting sheets, which was an unbelievable achievement for her. she only got three in the previous season in all competitions. I think she hit 12 in all competitions that season. And, she, yeah, just had an unbelievable, unbelievable season, a dream season for her. But then she decided to to go to the noisy neighbors who were splashing the cash and yeah. But once again, That's football, that's football that's football. And, it is what it is. And like me as a coach, I'll never hold grudges at all. I'll remember the good work that I put into her and and all my goalkeepers that I worked with always remember the good things about. them.

Paul (2): 1:05:31

Son's a goalkeeper and I watch him, you know, one of the goalkeeper sessions at EVO or or wherever he is at. And there's always the keeper mentality. It's, it's a tribe, right? Like you all play for different teams, but they're all in it together. They all, um, they all get each other. Nobody gets a keeper like another.

Jonno: 1:05:48

no. Like We are a breed apart. and truly we are a breed apart. It's it's scary How much different we are.

Paul: 1:05:56

So then specifically with, with women's football, then we've seen some tremendous success over the last few years, internationally, nationally, uh, the status of the women's game has elevated so much over the last couple of years.

Jonno: 1:06:12

I've already seen how it's Evolved regarding how good the goalkeepers are in possession. And it's very much. Done the same route as the men's game like teams are now wanting goalkeepers, having the ability to go and play and strike the ball, expansive and, being that third center half, to be on the ball And just basically being a attack setter as well, when you are kicking expansive and when you're playing into, or you're playing beyond the press. And I just think one of the key factors for how goalkeepers in female game will evolve and how they already have evolved is the physicality and the, and the speed that they move in and around the goal. it's really, really impressive. Really impressive. Like female goalkeepers are never gonna be as powerful as male goalkeepers it is just not gonna happen. However, I look at the likes of hannah Hampton and Mary Hers, and their speed and their power is just absolutely sensational. Yeah, it's sensational. and that is one big factor that I have seen really, really evolve and that's Testament to S&C coaches, sport science and what they're putting in, in the gym. and then us as goalkeeper coaches, what we are doing to make them as good as movers as what they are. so yeah, that, that's the biggest factor for me. the physicality and, and the speed.

Paul: 1:08:00

Okay, so we're coming to the end of the episode. Uh, there's a few questions I want to get in, but, uh, I just think we've, we've kind of covered your journey, but now I'm thinking in terms of young keepers who are watching this, the parents of keepers who are watching this, what advice would you give to the parents of young keepers who were just kind of in the, in the, in the early stages of their grassroots football? What can they do?

Jonno: 1:08:25

Support them, constantly support them, support them through thick and thin? One of my bug bears is do not coach on the sidelines. Light your son Light your daughter, play, play. Because I'll tell you a very funny story. My dad used to do that to me, and my manager at this point actually said, said to him, John, get up that hill. Let the boy play. Let let your child play, Let them make mistakes. Let them learn, from it. Don't be too harsh on them, as I say, say, be that supportive mechanism for them, because especially for goalkeepers, we're going to, there's gonna be times where it is going to hurt. Yeah. Conceding Goals getting hit when you're going into a 50 50 so constantly support them in any way that you can, most definitely, And reach out to people. Reach out to other coaches, other clubs. What we've got now at EvoGK is something that I never had as a kid talking about development centers. there was one in Gateshead. I run one here in Sunderland. And, there is major, major support for young keepers nowadays, especially here in the Northeast. so tap into that as well. just to give your sons and your daughters every, every opportunity. But yeah, support them constantly.

Paul: 1:10:11

I think it's, uh, I think it's great advice. Uh, what's the toughest challenge young goalkeepers face right now, in your opinion?

Jonno: 1:10:19

How, how They deal with setbacks. Because young kids nowadays, I, I see it a lot. They beat themselves up constantly. And that's. where the support makers, I'm from, the, from the parents, and the, family comes from where to be a top end goalkeeper and to go and really, really climb the ladder and be that cut above, You have to be so mentally strong in how you deal with setbacks, Because when you deal with setbacks in a positive manner. and I talk, I say this to my goalkeepers all the time as well as first team goalies, your next action is the most important one. It could be something as simple as a catch right, but that next action is a positive action after a mistake. So then the rest of your game can be positive. Yeah. So That's, that's definitely the main. thing.

Paul: 1:11:24

And if there's one thing for the modern keeper right now that, that you would have young keepers practicing over and over again. What? What's that one thing?

Jonno: 1:11:34

I would say probably the distribution side. and a lot of goalkeepers will go, oh my god, John, that's, boring. But just because of the way that football is evolving and the goalkeepers have to be so good with the ball at their feet, it is one side of it that you really, really need to practice. because it's a skill in itself. Don't get me wrong, and steely will love me for saying this. I'm old school regarding what a goalkeeper looks like. I want them to be 60 to 75%. Do what it says on the turn. you are a goalkeeper. You keep the ball at the back of the net. Yeah. end of the day, pre preventing chances, preventing goals is your job. However, you will probably touch the ball more time with your feet than your hands. So having the ability to go and clip the ball into a player kick beyond, play round the press, play through a press is just as important And making that top corner, top hand safe. Because at the end of the day, if you give the ball away what's going to happen? You are going to be tested. Yeah. So you keep possession then you're not gonna be as tested. as much gonna have the ball. exactly.

Paul: 1:13:00

And then circling back to Andy Goram, uh, with all that we've discussed today and the evolution of the game since those days, how do you think Andy would fare in today's game?

Jonno: 1:13:10

I remember my answer, The first time I, I said this and I think, Andy Andy Goram would, he doesn't tick the boxes as a modern day goalkeeper anymore because Andy Goram was never one to come off his line and dominate his area. He just dropped back and then defended the goal. So if I was going to put in categories, he, he would, have a major career in the game regarding defending the goal. No problem. Defending the space in behind because he was so brave, going into 50 fifties, no problem. and but having the ability to go and play out and defend his especially from cross balls, not so much cutbacks. He was really, really good at that. he might be a solid first choice. but I think he would be more of a second choice and that kills me to say that. and just, and the lifestyle game holds. yeah. It's,

Speaker: 1:14:10

It's just interesting to compare where we were, those, those days. And I remember Andy Gorham playing in goal and I said, when we chatted last time, I had the Pro card. Yeah. I was, uh, I was always, I was always a big fan of keepers and now we understand why a little bit more.

Speaker 3: 1:14:24

But but Jonathan, it's been an absolute pleasure chatting with you today. Thank you very much for, for doing this a second time. It's been a pleasure and I look forward to seeing you at the camps.

Paul: 1:14:35

Yes, top man. Thank you very much. Take care. Cheers.